Ben Nelson is ticking me off. (Grant: lawyer, home, construction jobs)

[MICHAEL J]

Good day Fred:

If I’m reading you correctly you and I are in agreement on many points. We agree that as Americans we are fortunate to have access to the best health care system in the world. We also agree that having the best is not going to be cheap, nor should it be. Now if we want to utilize this service we can pay as self-payers, by purchasing medical insurance, or by paying higher taxes. It certainly will never be “free” as some proclaim. We also agree that there are problems with our system in its current form.

I guess our area of disagreement is in the degree of government involvement. In my many decades of watching our government function, and in my 30+ years of being a business owner, I have absolutely no confidence in our government running anything efficiently, cheaper, or otherwise being able to make any improvements, period. President Johnson’s “Great Society” is a good example, or more recently the “cash for clunkers” program is another good example. Perhaps an even better example would be our government run education system… I could go on.

You had indicated in an earlier post that because our system is so convoluted and complex, we get far less bang for our buck. In my humble opinion, government involvement has actually caused the convolution and complexities. Why anyone who has watched our government function for any length of time would willingly give control of our world renowned health care system [20 percent of our economy] to 536 folks in Washington D.C., the vast majority of whom are lawyers who have never run anything, is beyond me.

[itsMeFred]

No, it's the confusion of public and private and where and how they intersect that causes the problems.

And if you ask the vast majority of people with VA health care (or even Medicaid, for that matter) if they'd prefer self-pay health insurance, you'll get a resounding "No!" I work with senior citizens and they actually count down the days til they can use Medicare. Not because it's so overwhelmingly wonderful, but because it's the best option available.

My kids were on Medicaid for a few years via the CHIPs program. They got they exact same quality of care from the same providers they'd have gotten via Blue Cross. But without the astronomical premiums, deductibles and co-pays.


I'm going to be a hard sell that universal is a bad idea.
I'm too poor to believe you.

[Nitemarehippy]

I honestly wish this and other debates that are currently underway lead to the fracturing of this United States. The hope for compromise is futile at best and laughable at worst. The Republican base and their values are so far away from anything that I want to live in, I see no common ground. The Democrats are no better.

If we could split up CONUS, with liberal minded people on one side and conservative on the other, it might just be a decision I could live with. This little experiment in Democracy has failed. The American Dream is dead.

If I could take back my military service, I would. There are just too many people that I don't think deserved it.

[mattpoulsen]

Nitemare,

I think part of the problem is the ridiculous extreme that both parties present. You have Barney Frank at one extreme and Limbaugh at another. But I would say 80% of Americans fall pretty much in the middle. I truly only know a handful of people that could be considered extreme on all issues.

I just think we need to retake control a bit. We need a viable third option to emerge, one that takes the best out of both. But ultimately that is up to the people. If everyone simply runs to their current party then there is no chance at reform. To be honest, that's why I like Nelson, he isn't afraid to stick it to his party (and he'll definitely do it to the republican party as well).

I would also add that from the very beginning of our country there were sharp divides. Its kind of part of the fabric of our country. While what seems as a gigantic divide between ideologies also serves as a check on extremes. Anytime one side goes to far the people respond and elect leadership from the otherside, forcing things to flip back a bit. In reality, having heeded debate is a sign the system is working well. The day dissent stops is the day we should all run for the hills.

[Nitemarehippy]

Matt I don't want to argue with you. However, Barney Frank is an elected official since the 80's comparing him to Rush is about the biggest insult you could give. Olbermann, would be the equivalent to Rush, not someone that is elected over and over again by the people of his district. He also attended and graduated Harvard Law. Is that a good law school? That was obviously a dig at the left.

Once again, the divide is too large. 80% of Amercians have no idea what the hell they want. Consider this my dissent to your post.

[MICHAEL J]

Fred:
Universal care is a good thing. Meaning we all have universal access to health care. Socialized care is not a good thing. Meaning government control of health care. Please research the work of Daniel Hannan. Mr. Hannan is a member of the British Parliament and has no financial stake in our debate. He has given many interviews over the past 6 months clearly spelling out the pitfalls of the disastrous European health care model. For example: 12 mo wait for knee replacement, 8 mo for cataract surgery, 11 mo for hip replacement, 5 mo for slipped disk, 5 mo for hernia repair, etc. Also, research the government run system for children in Hawaii, which was scrapped after 7 months.

Matt:
You and I are in much agreement. I would like to add to your last post though. Remember, Barney Frank has the power and authority to rob us of our freedoms and confiscate our wealth to use as he sees fit without our consent. Limbaugh has only the power to express his opinion if we choose to listen.

Hippy:

The experiment has not failed. The American dream is not dead (yet). This is Democracy at its best.

[mattpoulsen]

Nitemare,

I mentioned Limbaugh because I couldn't come up with a RELEVANT republican senator off the top of my head. The point is Frank is known for his extreme liberal ideology and Limbaugh is known for his extreme conservative ideology.

Further, they are both vocally insulting of the other side.

How is what I said a dig?? My god. I think you need to quit looking for tiny little superficial reasons to argue about the issue. I threw those two names out because that's what is shoved down peoples throats. I hate both of them. There was no dig involved at all. Limbaugh is a loud mouth idiot. Frank is a loud mouth idiot. They both play to the extremes of their respective parties and go to extremes in demonizing their opponents. I could say Johanns is an idiot but he's hardly relevant. Limbaugh swings much more power in the republican party than most republican senators, which disgusts me but those are the facts. So why you think its a "dig" is completely beyond me.

You didn't actually respond to what I posed. You just used this superficial "dig" you claim I through out in my last post, which IT WAS NOT, and just dismissed the rest of my post.

The US has always been fractured. That's the point I was trying to make. There have been two distinct and polarizing parties throughout the history of the Union. And, to be honest, there has always been a relatively uninformed electorate. The exact issues that are occurring today are issues that existed during the constitutional convention and the concerns we are discussing right now, fractionalization, ignorant electorate, extreme view points are all issues that were hammered out by Madison, Franklin and company. Nothing has fundamentally changed. Each party serves as a check on the other. It is only without that opposition is when we must be fearful of the government. Why do you think the democrats did so well in the last election? Its because Americans were sick of Bush's policies and wanted a new direction. Likewise, I can almost promise there will be a backlash in the 2010 congressional elections, with republicans gaining back some seats. Its the way its always been and the way it should be.

Finally, I don't know how many times I have to say this but I have no reason to make a "dig" towards liberals. I am liberal on many many issues. But I am conservative on many many issues. I HATE BOTH EXTREMES EQUALLY.

[Nitemarehippy]

I personally enjoy the antics of Frank, 18 year old prostitutes and all.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. I'm a Dawkins Militant Atheist. I'm a vet who is pro gun control. I am the extreme that you hate. I'm rubber, you're glue.

I know you are half liberal, but you are the only one who's talking. Just because you sit in the middle doesn't mean you get a free pass.

I didn't reply to your actual post, because it's not something I disagree with. Yes Virginia, I do know how checks and balances work. I just dislike their check, to our balance. Right wing ideology will be forever, the Republicans are temporary. Once the Baby Boomers all die off the Republicans are doomed. Maybe Ron Paul's Libertarian Army will be the next up and comer. I can at least understand some of their views.

I came to this forum to hassle people like OneWayJesus,for entertainment value. You are making me think too hard.

[Nitemarehippy]

I found a summary of our discussion.

[itsMeFred]

For example: 12 mo wait for knee replacement, 8 mo for cataract surgery, 11 mo for hip replacement, 5 mo for slipped disk, 5 mo for hernia repair, etc. Also, research the government run system for children in Hawaii, which was scrapped after 7 months.

And shall we hazard a guess at how long the un/under-insured wait?

I'll give you a hint: I've needed lithotripsy for my kidney stones for about 2 years...
(I can't afford the deductible for my insurance. ) Mine is a common story. Unless it's an emergency, it's put off.

The experiment has not failed. The American dream is not dead (yet). This is Democracy at its best.

I completely agree.