Top Ten Reasons Wht To Not Like In Nevada (Las Vegas: crime rate, houses)

[Frankawitz]

I didn't read all the 13 pages of posts but I am looking at moving out to Las Vegas for work, I was asked to bring my plastering company out to do repair work the lady I have been talking with says there is all kinds of work, I have been in construction for 27 years and in business for 22 years, I have checked out some of the housing and it doesn't seem to bad, I know that any one looking at moving to Michigan had better count on Higher Taxes and fewer jobs, the unemployment rate is around 14% but the State figure only shows people who get unempolyment benefits(7.8%) they don't count the people who took early retirement or buy outs or like myself who run small contracting compamies. I figure the move has to be better then living in a State were your going to loose everything you worked so hard to get. Governor Grandhole has stuck it to Michigan and I hope all the people who voted for her lose what little they have.

[greatbasinguide]

If you work hard you will do well, and Michigan has been tanking for many years, tough to blame one person.

Are you willing to hire illegals in Las Vegas? You will certainly be bidding against those who do.

[NevadaGal]

"Are you willing to hire illegals in Las Vegas? You will certainly be bidding against those who do."

You got that right!!

[ParkTwain]

Well, I've just registered on this board and I've read almost all the responses to this thread's original post. I have a few of my own opinions about living in LV after living for 40+ years in other parts of the U.S.

I moved to LV in 2003 and bought a brand new home that year. (I brought with me equity from selling a previous home.) My present home has a fantastic view of the Spring Mountains that stand west of LV. I can see the Red Rock cliff faces from my front windows. I feel very fortunate. I live in the Summerlin community on the west side of LV. Practically all of Summerlin's major streets are landscaped, which is not typical of the rest of LV, to its detriment, and there are several golf courses all around, which game I don't play but they add positively to the sense of open space and greenery (though some consider it wasteful greenery, which I can understand) between the tract home complexes. Summerlin is one of the more expensive large neighborhoods in the city, but it has a decent range of housing types and prices. I think it has the best views of both mountains and city in the entire LV valley. I think that at bottom you get what you pay for and with strong price appreciation by buying in Summerlin. The commute into the city from Summerlin is not good, as there is only one major freeway (U.S. 95), and it is always under construction and will be the feeder for all of northwest LV for probably the next decade, so plenty of gridlock remains in its future.

I worked in high tech (computer software and hardware) for about 25 years before I moved here, mostly in the suburban Boston area. (I was very spoiled living in Boston, but I know that it is an exceptional place and that LV and Nevada are actually more similar to the rest of the U.S.) I have also lived in the Mid-South and the Dallas-Ft Worth area. My experience in the high-tech field helped me get a couple of pretty good jobs within my first 12 months here. I moved here after already accepting a new job.

First, LV is a very fast-growing city. It has only been a true city (>500,000 residents) for no more than about a decade. Visitors and new arrivals shouldn't hold a lack of certain kinds of "culture" against LV. You can move here and bring your sense of culture with you. There are plenty of ways to contribute to improving your community. There is a large Hispanic population (percentage wise) in LV, and illegals are probably very prevalent. There are lots of landscaping jobs, for instance, for the illegals to do, and the lack of Federal enforcement allows their widespread employment in that field and in construction. With this being my first stint of living in the American West, I can only imagine how much of California's historical wealth was created due to the huge pool of ever-present illegal sub-market-wage labor from Mexico. (Our illegal immigration problem in the U.S. is basically driven politically by the Chamber of Commerce, IMO.)

Second, LV's economy is obviously based on tourism and gambling, though even those are morphing into a more general entertainment economy. There will be more TV and movie production to take place in LV in the future. There are huge conventions and great numbers of them that take place here (at least three large convention halls in LV) all year 'round. They employ lots of local people.

Third, the makeup of the job market in LV is slowly diversifying away from predominantly blue collar, though due to the many VERY LARGE casinos and hotels there are many jobs in those sectors. As others have posted, the practical requirements and skills needed for most of the casino and hotel jobs are pretty minimal, but the more practical skills (computer, marketing) you have to offer the sooner you can progress out of the entry level positions. The number of people actually working hard in LV is pretty high, better than in many U.S. cities. The existence of large-scale gambling activities also creates job descriptions that are unique to LV and Nevada. (Would you like to be employed to collect gambling debts of high rollers by flying overseas? Would you like to teach video poker techniques? Can you make a living at sports betting? Can you invent a new variant of three-card poker? Ever read the "Las Vegas Advisor" newsletter? Etc.) An additional trend is to provide services for retired people, of whom there are many around LV. That means there is a growing need for income tax accountants, investment advisors, lawyers (UNLV law school is good and CHEAP), medical service providers of all kinds, teaching golf pros, gourmet cooking instructors, etc. There is not that much "high tech" employment in LV, but Vegas's predominant industries aren't heavy consumers of information technology. The gaming machines themselves are highly regulated by the state, and their designs and physical workings must be "open" to inspection and validation by Nevada Gaming Commission workers at all times; this means that there is little superfluous use of computer technology in those machines, but their technological sophistication is in fact growing year by year. Plenty of business enterprises in NV are very lightly regulated, which can be a "painful" thing to watch become improved if you have lived elsewhere. It is counterproductive when NV natives dismiss out of hand the experience gained by other U.S. cities and states in government and various regulatory roles. (It is fine politically and socially to want to keep costs low, but if your people are employed predominantly in what is inherently a low-productivity industry, as in LV, it is dangerous in the long run for the politicians not to invest in diversifying the economy.) As the population in LV continues to grow and diversify, there will be an increasing demand by the electorate to improve governmental services. In LV you will pay for water service, garbage collection, sewer service, perhaps homeowner's association dues, and only a few other municipal services that you might not have paid separately in other locales. This is fine at present. The total cost of living in LV is still pretty cheap compared to the rest of the U.S. Water service is still very cheap in LV (too cheap to really promote water conservation at this point in time). Electricity and nat gas rates have been cheap but are slowly trending higher over the 4 years I have lived here.

Fourth, there aren't enough cops per capita in LV, and those that exist mostly concern themselves with the central city (Strip, etc.). There is a good bit of burglary crime and car thefts. You can access some of the LV crime information at this web site: CrimeView Community Incident Map . Just get a good security system for your home, and have your belongings adequately insured. The freeway situation in LV is very inadequate, and I would say that the politicians have totally dropped the ball on this from Day One. I spoke last year with the chief manager in LV for roads development, and he told me that LV has one-sixth the miles of freeway compared to the average for U.S. cities of its size. This issue, I would say, is a symptom of the more general problem of the city and Clark County (whose councilmen actually run most everything in LV) paying most of their attention to what the real estate developers and casino companies want, to the detriment of the greater populace who are not transient. It won't be too long before there is such a high degree of road gridlock in LV that it will negatively affect the local economy, and by then the bloom will have fully passed from the rose of LV's former attractiveness as a livable city and tourist destination. It takes the LV cops hours to process a significant road accident, with the expected impact on traffic. I was driving home from work yesterday past a scene where fire trucks had pulled into a business parking lot to put out a back-of-building fire, but the trucks still caused 2 of 3 travel lanes to be blocked off. This was completely unnecessary and just added a traffic problem to the rest of the situation and potentially caused a road accident. I also see a lot of no-tag autos driving around. The cops don't seem to have this under control. If an unregistered car hits me (or is being driven by an illegal), what am I supposed to do to get justice after the collision? The populace won't stand for this situation for too many more years.

Fifth, I have noticed in LV the city that many little municipal design issues that were put into place years ago contribute to traffic accidents, such as poorly placed bus stop stands, travel lanes too narrow, narrow sidewalks along some of the major roads and with high cinderblock walls so that you can't see oncoming traffic before you pull out. (Because of flash flooding concerns, it is a local regulation that all single-family homes much be surrounded with a high cinderblock wall to prevent flooding between properties.) The parking lots themselves are in many cases poorly designed with odd-angled turns with poor sight lines. Also, because all the major boulevards are basically straight-arrow, drivers lose their concentration of what is around them and lapse into bad collisions in broad daylight and with perfectly clear driving conditions. There seem to be many accidents involving left turns across traffic. (Granted, when making a left turn across traffic, it is true that it is more difficult to gauge the speed of an oncoming car when it is traveling on a perfectly straight line toward you, especially at night.)

Sixth, LV and Nevada politicians don't put a high priority on education up to the secondary level. Teacher pay here is low. But as others have posted, there are many decent jobs in LV for those with only high school behind them. However, these jobs are mostly appropriate for younger workers, and each of us must consider the ramifications of premature physical injury, extreme outdoor working conditions in the summer, etc. along with the fact that LV will always attract the least educationally qualified from the U.S. and around the world. Use that $80K hotel car valet job to invest in continuing your education at night while you are young! If you're worried about bordellos, you really have to work to find one in southern Nevada (none in Clark County). From what I can tell about anywhere else in Nevada, their existence is a non-factor socially and economically. There are also lots of Mormons (hard-working and generally ethical people, whose religion emphasizes common enterprise, personal responsibility, and family ties) in LV and Nevada, which was once part of the Utah Territory and was colonized and settled in a very planned manner by Brigham Young's own directives in the 19th century.

Seventh, I can't speak for what it's like to live and work elsewhere in Nevada, but there are so many nearby places having natural beauty (Nevada's Ruby Mtns., Great Basin Nat'l Park, 312 hot springs ( Nevada Hot Springs ), Lake Mead and the Colorado River, Lake Tahoe, Jarbidge area wilderness, ghost towns, Valley of Fire State Park, both GLACIERS and SAND DUNES, the "sandstone doughnut" ( Photos ), Amargosa Valley wetlands, and LV's nearby Spring Mountains; California's Death Valley (parts are barely a 1-hr drive from Pahrump); Utah's Zion and Bryce Canyon nat'l parks and many others sights in southwest Utah; Arizona's Grand Canyon and northern and central Arizona towns such as Sedona, Flagstaff, Jerome, etc.) and that I have yet to see that I should be busy for many years to come. Lovelock, Nevada, has one of only two round courthouses in the U.S. ( http://www.nevadatravel.net/pix/love...ths300x200.jpg ). And have you heard of Diana's Punchbowl ( http://www.depauw.edu/acad/geoscienc...ada/dianah.jpg ), 30 mi SE of Austin in Monitor County?

I don't dislike the desert, and you certainly won't get a realistic sense of what Nevada has to offer as to natural beauty after only passing through via one of its major highways (as is also the case in any other U.S. state). And there are almost zero flying bugs in LV! No mosquitos! It's great! Most of the year the climate is low-humidity and invigorating. If you're having skin dryness issues, you can change your diet (cod liver oil!) to increase the oiliness of your skin. Seriously, it works! Nosebleeds can be a problem for some, and I don't have a ready suggestion for that.

//PT

[garth]

ParkTwain - Good post. I found it fair, balanced, insightful, and helpful to others. Thank you for the investment of your time and organization of your thoughts.

[Buzz123]

I don't disagree with everything you've said and I know you are being nice, but I have to say that you do sound like you've only been here a short time. You've learned a lot about the area and I congratulate you for that. When it comes to understanding what Nevada is, you get it. But there are a few flaws in your long, looooong post. No big deal, but since I wasn't doing anything anyway....

Originally Posted by ParkTwain

My present home has a fantastic view of the Spring Mountains that stand west of LV. I can see the Red Rock cliff faces from my front windows. I feel very fortunate.
You are fortunate because no one should have ever built in that area. Howard Hughes should be shot for not protecting it. Too bad he's already dead.



I worked in high tech (computer software and hardware) for about 25 years before I moved here, mostly in the suburban Boston area. (I was very spoiled living in Boston, but I know that it is an exceptional place
Why do you say that? When I visited MA I was impressed because it's a pretty state, and I love the historical sites. But it is in the east. Humidity. Congestion. Bad weather. But Nevada has that same "we're better than everyone else" snobbery just like I've noticed people from MA do. Only we can back it up. For one thing, we'd never even elect Ted Kennedy to dog catcher.

and that LV and Nevada are actually more similar to the rest of the U.S.) How do you figure? It's completely different.


First, LV is a very fast-growing city. It has only been a true city (>500,000 residents) for no more than about a decade.
Now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. I'd say adding 11 people per hour for over twenty years is a little fast, yes. But to say we've only been a true city for a decade is a bit condescending isn't it? I've been in this true city for over 43 years and it was a city before I got here. I believe we were at 500,000 in about 1988 or 89. Up from 200,000 in 1968 or 69.


Visitors and new arrivals shouldn't hold a lack of certain kinds of "culture" against LV.

This is true.


You can move here and bring your sense of culture with you. This they shouldn't do. If they are moving here it is much easier for them to become one of us then for all of us to become like them. And we don't want Nevada to lose it's distinctive charactor. So forget about hiow you did it back in Ohio. We don't care. Do it our way or hit the highway.




Second, LV's economy is obviously based on tourism and gambling, though even those are morphing into a more general entertainment economy. There will be more TV and movie production to take place in LV in the future. There are huge conventions and great numbers of them that take place here (at least three large convention halls in LV) all year 'round.

We have the country's largest convention center in the Las Vegas Convention Center. And we have one in every major hotel/casino.

They employ lots of local people. More understatement. I hope you meant it that way. Don't make the mistake all newbies make in that they think all this started when they arrived three years ago. General entertainment? Las vegas has been known as the entertainment capital of the world for over 50 years. Probably the only place in the country that has been the setting for more movies than Nevada is California.

Third, the makeup of the job market in LV is slowly diversifying away from predominantly blue collar, though due to the many VERY LARGE casinos and hotels there are many jobs in those sectors. I really did not start out to sound critical of what you wrote, but you do understate a lot, so I thought I'd beef it up a little.

First of all, I've been hearing about how we need to diversify for all of my 43 years here. It's not a new concept. It's just very hard to do. The big investors want to put their money where they will get the most return, and that's in tourism...hotel/casinos. We don't just have a bunch of very large hotel/casinos...we have 12 of the top 14 largest hotels in the world, and the three most expensive ever built. We have more hotel rooms than any city in the country...perhaps the world. There aren't just "many" jobs in the service industry...there are tens of thousands of jobs in hotel/casinos and supporting industries. I believe there are at least 8 to 10,000 workers at the MGM alone.



The freeway situation in LV is very inadequate, and I would say that the politicians have totally dropped the ball on this from Day One.

I totally agree with you and have been saying this for at least 30 years or more myself. Day one was back in the late 50's early 60's with I-15. Former Mayor Ron Lourie (sp?) was run out of office for building the Summerlin Parkway since it went nowhere at the time except to some property that he and some other big wheels owned. But he should have been given a medal. The Beltway is at least ten years behind the times, maybe more. And there should have been another east-west freeway and probably a north-south one before the land disappeared.



Fifth, I have noticed in LV the city that many little municipal design issues that were put into place years ago contribute to traffic accidents, such as poorly placed bus stop stands, travel lanes too narrow, narrow sidewalks along some of the major roads and with high cinderblock walls so that you can't see oncoming traffic before you pull out.

You've struck on the ONE big complaint I've had about Nevada since my first back country trip in about 1965. Nevada had NO speed limit back then. We were going pretty fast in the middle of the night when suddenly our side of the road abruptly ended in a pile of dirt and blacktop. Then had dug up our lane and there was no warning whatsoever except a weak little lantern sitting on top of the huge pile of dirt. I have always enjoyed the pioneer spirit in Nevada...the concept of look out for yourself gives us a lot of freedom. But I have always been down on those responsible for the roads. Specifically the lack of concern over highway safety, and especially the haphazard signage that is usually missing, but when there it is in the wrong place.

(Because of flash flooding concerns, it is a local regulation that all single-family homes much be surrounded with a high cinderblock wall to prevent flooding between properties.)
I've never heard that reason given for block walls before but maybe you're on to something. When I got here most of us knew a lot of showpeople. The girls especially liked to have all over tans. Everyone liked their privacy. So that has always been the reason that I was aware of for block walls. I think you'll find it is also a California thing and they have had enormous influence on Las Vegas.


Seventh, I can't speak for what it's like to live and work elsewhere in Nevada, but there are so many nearby places having natural beauty (Nevada's Ruby Mtns., Great Basin Nat'l Park, 312 hot springs ( Nevada Hot Springs ), Lake Mead and the Colorado River, Lake Tahoe, Jarbidge area wilderness, ghost towns, Valley of Fire State Park, both GLACIERS and SAND DUNES, the "sandstone doughnut" ( Photos ), Amargosa Valley wetlands, and LV's nearby Spring Mountains; California's Death Valley (parts are barely a 1-hr drive from Pahrump); Utah's Zion and Bryce Canyon nat'l parks and many others sights in southwest Utah; Arizona's Grand Canyon and northern and central Arizona towns such as Sedona, Flagstaff, Jerome, etc.) and that I have yet to see that I should be busy for many years to come. Lovelock, Nevada, has one of only two round courthouses in the U.S. ( http://www.nevadatravel.net/pix/love...ths300x200.jpg ). And have you heard of Diana's Punchbowl ( http://www.depauw.edu/acad/geoscienc...ada/dianah.jpg ), 30 mi SE of Austin in Monitor County?

I don't dislike the desert, and you certainly won't get a realistic sense of what Nevada has to offer as to natural beauty after only passing through via one of its major highways (as is also the case in any other U.S. state). And there are almost zero flying bugs in LV! No mosquitos! It's great! Most of the year the climate is low-humidity and invigorating.

All of the above and more can be lumped into one and said to be THE reason to live in Nevada and is the reason I've most often heard from friends. There is so much to do within a relatively short distance of Las vegas that makes it the center of everything. Once you've lived here a while and gotten used to the wide open spaces where you can roam as free as a bird, you will get claustrophobic outside of the west. There are Natioal Parks and state parks galore. The mountains, hiking, backpacking, biking, beach, San Diego, LA, Disneyland, Utah, Yellowstone, Yosemite, Tahoe, about a zillion ski resorts...all relatively close and most important, easy to get to.

I started out to merely ask you one question. Where is Diana's punchbowl? I've never heard of it. Austin is in Lander County and there is no Monitor County in Nevada. 30 miles SE would put you in Big Smoky Valley north of Tonopah.


//PT

[olecapt]

Oh hell I cannot resist. Though I have other things I need to do...

Originally Posted by ParkTwain
My present home has a fantastic view of the Spring Mountains that stand west of LV. I can see the Red Rock cliff faces from my front windows. I feel very fortunate.
You are fortunate because no one should have ever built in that area. Howard Hughes should be shot for not protecting it. Too bad he's already dead.

Disagree with both of you. The average view in Summerlin is of other houses in Summerlin. If you have a nice view you are well off. I doubt 10% of Summerlin has a reasonable view. I disagree with Buzz in that most of this is the flat valley and the alluvial plans. Nothing particularly worth more than other areas

I worked in high tech (computer software and hardware) for about 25 years before I moved here, mostly in the suburban Boston area. (I was very spoiled living in Boston, but I know that it is an exceptional place
Why do you say that? When I visited MA I was impressed because it's a pretty state, and I love the historical sites. But it is in the east. Humidity. Congestion. Bad weather. But Nevada has that same "we're better than everyone else" snobbery just like I've noticed people from MA do. Only we can back it up. For one thing, we'd never even elect Ted Kennedy to dog catcher.
I am with Buzz on this one. One lives in Boston because one has to for reason other than a nice place to live. Cramped, dirty, humid, Congested...almost all that is wrong with the east. Historical place are nice to visit don't live there.
and that LV and Nevada are actually more similar to the rest of the U.S.) How do you figure? It's completely different.


First, LV is a very fast-growing city. It has only been a true city (>500,000 residents) for no more than about a decade.
Now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. I'd say adding 11 people per hour for over twenty years is a little fast, yes. But to say we've only been a true city for a decade is a bit condescending isn't it? I've been in this true city for over 43 years and it was a city before I got here. I believe we were at 500,000 in about 1988 or 89. Up from 200,000 in 1968 or 69.


Visitors and new arrivals shouldn't hold a lack of certain kinds of "culture" against LV.

This is true.

Culture is in the eyes of the beholder. I thought the LV wedding thing "tacky" until I attended a few and discovered these folk find LV romantic. Don't blame me for taste but they know what they like.

You can move here and bring your sense of culture with you. This they shouldn't do. If they are moving here it is much easier for them to become one of us then for all of us to become like them. And we don't want Nevada to lose it's distinctive charactor. So forget about hiow you did it back in Ohio. We don't care. Do it our way or hit the highway.

Yup..Like it in MA. Stay in MA. Come here join us in our thing. You can of course change our thing if you make it yours...but first you gotta join..

Second, LV's economy is obviously based on tourism and gambling, though even those are morphing into a more general entertainment economy. There will be more TV and movie production to take place in LV in the future. There are huge conventions and great numbers of them that take place here (at least three large convention halls in LV) all year 'round.

We have the country's largest convention center in the Las Vegas Convention Center. And we have one in every major hotel/casino.

They employ lots of local people. More understatement. I hope you meant it that way. Don't make the mistake all newbies make in that they think all this started when they arrived three years ago. General entertainment? Las vegas has been known as the entertainment capital of the world for over 50 years. Probably the only place in the country that has been the setting for more movies than Nevada is California.

The economy diversifies in unusual ways. We have gone from taking peoples money at the blackjack table to taking their money for food and entertainment and hotel rooms. We become less dependent on gambling every year.
Third, the makeup of the job market in LV is slowly diversifying away from predominantly blue collar, though due to the many VERY LARGE casinos and hotels there are many jobs in those sectors. I really did not start out to sound critical of what you wrote, but you do understate a lot, so I thought I'd beef it up a little.

First of all, I've been hearing about how we need to diversify for all of my 43 years here. It's not a new concept. It's just very hard to do. The big investors want to put their money where they will get the most return, and that's in tourism...hotel/casinos. We don't just have a bunch of very large hotel/casinos...we have 12 of the top 14 largest hotels in the world, and the three most expensive ever built. We have more hotel rooms than any city in the country...perhaps the world. There aren't just "many" jobs in the service industry...there are tens of thousands of jobs in hotel/casinos and supporting industries. I believe there are at least 8 to 10,000 workers at the MGM alone.



The freeway situation in LV is very inadequate, and I would say that the politicians have totally dropped the ball on this from Day One.

I totally agree with you and have been saying this for at least 30 years or more myself. Day one was back in the late 50's early 60's with I-15. Former Mayor Ron Lourie (sp?) was run out of office for building the Summerlin Parkway since it went nowhere at the time except to some property that he and some other big wheels owned. But he should have been given a medal. The Beltway is at least ten years behind the times, maybe more. And there should have been another east-west freeway and probably a north-south one before the land disappeared.

I disagree with you both. The traffic in LV flows rationally well and will get better quickly for those of us in the west. I would swear neither of you has ever been in Los Angeles or Boston...



Fifth, I have noticed in LV the city that many little municipal design issues that were put into place years ago contribute to traffic accidents, such as poorly placed bus stop stands, travel lanes too narrow, narrow sidewalks along some of the major roads and with high cinderblock walls so that you can't see oncoming traffic before you pull out.

You've struck on the ONE big complaint I've had about Nevada since my first back country trip in about 1965. Nevada had NO speed limit back then. We were going pretty fast in the middle of the night when suddenly our side of the road abruptly ended in a pile of dirt and blacktop. Then had dug up our lane and there was no warning whatsoever except a weak little lantern sitting on top of the huge pile of dirt. I have always enjoyed the pioneer spirit in Nevada...the concept of look out for yourself gives us a lot of freedom. But I have always been down on those responsible for the roads. Specifically the lack of concern over highway safety, and especially the haphazard signage that is usually missing, but when there it is in the wrong place.

(Because of flash flooding concerns, it is a local regulation that all single-family homes much be surrounded with a high cinderblock wall to prevent flooding between properties.)
I've never heard that reason given for block walls before but maybe you're on to something. When I got here most of us knew a lot of showpeople. The girls especially liked to have all over tans. Everyone liked their privacy. So that has always been the reason that I was aware of for block walls. I think you'll find it is also a California thing and they have had enormous influence on Las Vegas.

There is no rule on block walls. Ever been here when it floods? You know what comes down first? Block walls. I think nonsense. It is simply the southwestern custom...spanish in origin and common throughout the SW. No statue involved.


Seventh, I can't speak for what it's like to live and work elsewhere in Nevada, but there are so many nearby places having natural beauty (Nevada's Ruby Mtns., Great Basin Nat'l Park, 312 hot springs ( Nevada Hot Springs ), Lake Mead and the Colorado River, Lake Tahoe, Jarbidge area wilderness, ghost towns, Valley of Fire State Park, both GLACIERS and SAND DUNES, the "sandstone doughnut" ( Photos ), Amargosa Valley wetlands, and LV's nearby Spring Mountains; California's Death Valley (parts are barely a 1-hr drive from Pahrump); Utah's Zion and Bryce Canyon nat'l parks and many others sights in southwest Utah; Arizona's Grand Canyon and northern and central Arizona towns such as Sedona, Flagstaff, Jerome, etc.) and that I have yet to see that I should be busy for many years to come. Lovelock, Nevada, has one of only two round courthouses in the U.S. ( http://www.nevadatravel.net/pix/love...ths300x200.jpg (broken link) ). And have you heard of Diana's Punchbowl ( DePauw University - 404 Error (broken link) ), 30 mi SE of Austin in Monitor County?

I don't dislike the desert, and you certainly won't get a realistic sense of what Nevada has to offer as to natural beauty after only passing through via one of its major highways (as is also the case in any other U.S. state). And there are almost zero flying bugs in LV! No mosquitos! It's great! Most of the year the climate is low-humidity and invigorating.

All of the above and more can be lumped into one and said to be THE reason to live in Nevada and is the reason I've most often heard from friends. There is so much to do within a relatively short distance of Las vegas that makes it the center of everything. Once you've lived here a while and gotten used to the wide open spaces where you can roam as free as a bird, you will get claustrophobic outside of the west. There are Natioal Parks and state parks galore. The mountains, hiking, backpacking, biking, beach, San Diego, LA, Disneyland, Utah, Yellowstone, Yosemite, Tahoe, about a zillion ski resorts...all relatively close and most important, easy to get to.

I started out to merely ask you one question. Where is Diana's punchbowl? I've never heard of it. Austin is in Lander County and there is no Monitor County in Nevada. 30 miles SE would put you in Big Smoky Valley north of Tonopah.

But I too like the idea...I even go to some of those places...

[ParkTwain]

Quite remarkable how you two missed what I am saying about Boston. New England is a very beautiful area, quite the opposite of LV area in landscape obviously. I'm talking about the social culture and the very high educational level of the people, and look what that emphasis has allowed that region to accomplish. Not too many work-shirkers there, either. The cold weather also requires a higher degree of industriousness than found here in southern Nevada. It's mostly based on the climate (I agree with Toynbee the historian about that). Boston has a 300-year head start on LV, not to be held against LV.

In its level of educational development and emphasis on conspicuous consumption (subject to American mass media), LV is more like the rest of the US than is New England. Also, there is very little "hot rod" culture in the Northeast. I drive around here and it's like LV folks are still discovering the internal combustion engine. Tricked-out cars, Hummer mania, street racing, modified Honda Civics that sound like weed-whackers, gunning your SUV only to reach the next red light first, etc. There is no sense that all these cars are rolling dinosaurs, fouling the air and wasting everyone's time on congested roads. The Western cities have the chance to learn from "back East" (a telling phrase). But I don't see any evidence of it in LV.

Of course one brings one's previously acquired culture with one in one's travels. Bringing a culture of education, hard work, and civic engagement is quite a bit of what would make southern Nevada a better place to live in the social realm.

Diana's Punchbowl is SE of Austin, Nevada, whatever county that is. Look it up!

No, the traffic in LV doesn't "flow rationally." Rational would mean a "spoke and hub" system, for instance, to move cars into the city center from the edges. That doesn't exist here. Other that I-15, you have only two spokes: 95 N and S. Summerlin Pkwy feeds 95 N. Watch what happens when merely two really bad accidents shut down the entire city for most of a day. Do you consider how much more air pollution is being created each day due to so many cars sitting in traffic? How is someone living in Aliante supposed to commute to Fremont St, for instance, in anything near to a straight line? And get the big rigs out of the passing lane. They are a constant threat to the safety of all motorists. Just read the news.

My main observation about Nevada, based only on living in southern Nevada, is that politically the state is constantly doing things on the cheap. (Outside of LV, the Nevada economy is not large and is not very diversified. It needs investment and subsidy to diversify.) The roads in LV are the biggest proof of this, and the educational system is the second. It's like the politicians haven't heard of a municipal bond. After visiting a couple of times in Arizona, I believe that that state is only a little ahead of Nevada in these areas as well. Arizona gets a little more rain in the summer, has better cactuses, and has the Grand Canyon.

Right now Vegas is a great place to start a business. Real estate development and casino expansion are already well underway, and their roles as economic drivers in Clark County will mostly come to an end someday (W-A-T-E-R). (Has anyone noticed that Southern Nevada Water Authority's planning for new water supplies doesn't go out further than about 30 years from today? HELLOOOOO!) The economic planners will have to decide what next to emphasize and perhaps overtly subsidize to form the next phase of economic expansion. Most kinds of development would depend on the educatonal system being a support, so avoiding spending $$$ on secondary education and higher won't cut it forever. A "look out for yourself" mentality can be compared to glorified subsistence, when other parts of the country are successfully diversifying: look at central Texas (Austin) and the Raleigh, NC areas.

Check it out about the block walls. I think you are misinformed. "Ever been here when it floods? You know what comes down first? Block walls." Not during the most recent flood that rolled down Gowan Ave. The idea is that if the flood water rolls into your front yard and through the gate, it won't run out of your backyard and into the neighbor's property.

Being a "city" is more than a raw population figure. It is whether there is a municipal transportation system, a sufficient public library system, neighborhood parks at a certain geographic density, diversity of media outlets, organized local political activity, etc. There seems to be almost no organized political activity within Clark County devoted to LOCAL issues, beyond neighborhood associations and local chapters of several national nonprofit organizations.

This is what some media entrepreneur thinks of as "news" in LV: It's actually more like a poor copy of the E! Entertainment cable channel: Raw Vegas. This one is also more of the same: WatchIt Vegas (broken link).

//PT

[garth]

ParkTwain, I don't have a dog in the Las Vegas fight since I actively chose not to live in or near Las Vegas for my reasons. However, I would like to point out something that may be getting other people's fur to stand on end. Let's take your following statment as an example:

Originally Posted by ParkTwain

Bringing a culture of education, hard work, and civic engagement is quite a bit of what would make southern Nevada a better place to live in the social realm.

Well, doesn't that sound nice? When I read it, I hear the other side of those words. It means that people who are not from your referenced area don't have a culture of education, don't work hard, and they have no interest in the welfare of their community (civic). Your words have effectively insulted people native to the West, native to Western culture, and are native or long-term residents of Las Vegas. I won't say that such words are unfair, I will say that they are insulting and wrong.

I know such things are not said in those words in an outright manner, but they are legitmately inferred. When your words come across in that matter, you should expect others to confront you.

Then we continue with the following statement:

Originally Posted by ParkTwain

It's like the politicians haven't heard of a municipal bond.

This one even gets my blood boiling. The traditional culture in the West, especially in Nevada, has been vastly different from the culture in the East in a variety of ways. Without getting into a long disucssion on the entire subject, I will just touch on one aspect of the differences. It has to do with politics, which I hesitate bringing it up because such a discussion tends to get heated if people don't remain on point.

Your statement is one that would be expected from people in certain eastern states. The culture of wealth redistribution, heavy taxation on the population, and the idea that "goverment that governs the most governs the best" (to pervert a phrase), is well entrenched in a state like Mass, Conn, and others. It is a cultural position that expects the government to spend lots of money on countless, extensive, and expensive public projects with one hand while stealing the money to pay for it, from the pockets of its citizens, with the other hand.

It is different out here, at least from the perspective of a Western native, although not a Nevada native. Distrust of large governement and a dislike of heavy taxation is entrenched in traditional conservative Western culture.

When you write that "municipal bonds" should be an answer to a variety of problems, it can only be viewed in respect to the often held Western views. As such, people like me hear all kinds of nasty stuff, including the invasion of . . . okay stand by, here I go . . . the vomit headed, left wing, tax and spend, apologist crying, liberal Kennedy drink-n-spend elements, et. al. from those high tax states like . . . Mass, Conn, etc. In other words, tax (Muni bond) and spend is not necessarily the answer to some Western natives and such a suggestion can also raise the hair on some Western dogs' backs.

I also view it as the old battle of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," which was apparently not taught in Eastern schools. To do otherwise, and force a foreign and often disliked Eastern cultural viewpoint, or agenda, into a region traditionally dominated by a strongly different culture, will only garner responses identified in the previous two posts . . . and in mine. You need to expect them.

Okay, I feel a little better now . . . sort of.

[ParkTwain]

Buzz123 wrote: "And we don't want Nevada to lose it's distinctive charactor."

Among the western states, Nevada isn't all that distinctive. It's got a small population, a small economy (predominantly mining and gambling), little surface water, a continental climate. LV is trying like heck to become LA but without LA's water supply; that's not distinctive. Having a few whorehouses isn't distinctive relative to the rest of the West, just anachronistic. The other western states certainly used to have them. The gambling part is distinctive but has had its mixed blessings. See the book "The Money and the Power" by Denton and Morris.

I guess you should be more specific about what you mean, then maybe I would agree with you.