Amargosa Valley Alternative Energy Project (Las Vegas: how much, homes, casinos)

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Clarks

Yawn, 6,000 bucks and you have a workable system. 30,000 bucks and you have a system that will handle your electric dryer,,, and yours,,, and yours ,,, and yours.

One house, 600,000 houses not a problem. My systems have worked in northern heavy snow country, ah do believe, the sunny climate of Las Vegas, or most any city in the country, pose no problem.

So now, what is your monthly electric bill, I can only guess, but say, an average of 200 per month, 2400 per year, 2400 goes into 6,000 3 times, you paid for your system in 3 years, after that it is gravy.

Now say you toss 30,000 in, you pay for your system in 13 years.

Well kids, hard to see a problem here.

There are those who see a truck stuck in the mud and say, heck that truck is stuck in the mud, tain't nuthin I can do. And then there is those who see a truck stuck in the mud and say, hey if I get that out with this here comealong and that there deadman, I got me a truck.

Ole Capn' you will persist in your belief, and reason shall not move you. I tell you photo voltaics work and work well, but my words bounce off you like bullets off a battleship.

But, there are others who understand that America has entered a new world, a world where mega industrial power generation with the transport of that power to the use area is just plain wasteful, wasteful of the land, and wasteful of the nation's money.
Here is a good place to start.
Rocky Mountain Institute : Abundance By Design

Why don't you go off and read the RMI stuff you quoted?

RMI points out that the beginning of competitiveness in 19% of the residental market place...in the optimum markets...requires around $2 per watt. The present cost also pointed out by RMI is $8/watt. Guess that leaves a 4X improvement before PV becomes competitive in the best market places.

Go read the RMI stuff. You may learn something.

[Clarks]

Keep reading there laddie; you can take a look at this sentence, ponder it, think on it, digest it,

I tell you photo voltaics work and work well, but my words bounce off you like bullets off a battleship.

You sound like one of those people who inspite of all the evidence are sure that Obama is not an American citizen.

A short note to the rational among you, Photovoltaics work, thousands of homes in America use them, you will save money in the long run, and help prevent the industrial sized solar power plants that will chew up open country and keep you dependent on the utility companies.

[NVDave]

Originally Posted by Clarks

First point, why have a grid?
Second point, why have a utility company?

You may have missed my point, the whole reason for point of use generation is to remove the need for the grid, or for utility companies, now, there may be heavy users that will require non point of use generation, but that isn't you, or me, or millions of others.

If you have to ask those questions, you don't know much about the real uses of electrical power in the US.

About 50% of the power in the US is used in induction motors. You're not going to set up a rooftop PV system that is going to start large induction motors easily.

PV is fine for people who are residential, low-demand users of electrical power, if they're willing to live with the inconvenience and outlandish expense of setting up a system.

It doesn't even begin to address the requirements of heavy industrial, ag, data-center and high-uptime users of power.

[Clarks]

If you have to ask those questions, you don't know much about the real uses of electrical power in the US.

Perhaps, but I do understand the subject of the thread.

A functioning electrical grid already exists in the US to supply those needs.

The subject here is mega solar plants miles from point of use vs point of use generation.

Regarding your mention of Ag, most farmers around my area use electric well pumps and diesel electric secondary boosters to run sprinkler systems. That is a poor use of resources and technology, so, I have an idea, instead of attempting to demonstrate superior knowledge, solve that problem.

the inconvenience and outlandish expense

That statement is irrational, what inconvenience, and expense? Solar is cheaper than the grid, over time.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Clarks

Perhaps, but I do understand the subject of the thread.

A functioning electrical grid already exists in the US to supply those needs.

The subject here is mega solar plants miles from point of use vs point of use generation.

Regarding your mention of Ag, most farmers around my area use electric well pumps and diesel electric secondary boosters to run sprinkler systems. That is a poor use of resources and technology, so, I have an idea, instead of attempting to demonstrate superior knowledge, solve that problem.



That statement is irrational, what inconvenience, and expense? Solar is cheaper than the grid, over time.

Again your own source says that is untrue...and that is in the cherry application. You simply fail to understand. Read your own source some more. They have the numbers roughly correct.

[Clarks]

Here, let me type real slow, home based solar works, hard to figure why you think it doesn't, but.

Your thinking is just plain silly, thousands of homes use solar electric power across the country.

Refusing to accept simple facts is a bit odd.

Remember; whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you are right.

[NVDave]

Originally Posted by Clarks

That statement is irrational, what inconvenience, and expense? Solar is cheaper than the grid, over time.

Go ahead. Lay out the numbers for me. I'm a EE. I've run the numbers backwards and forwards and unless you're in a state that does one or more of the following:

a) net meters power, ie, pays you the retail rate for power you put back into the grid,

b) you have a state with a (relatively high) income tax rate, and you get a tax break on your capital expenses,

c) you get a property tax break for the property value increase from the installation,

PV takes anywhere from 19 to 35 years to pencil out without subsidies and taxpayer largess.

I ran the numbers very closely there in Nevada, and did so for rural areas of the state where they are served by rural co-ops who need to pay only "avoided costs" for reverse metering. "Avoided cost" is where the co-op will pay you what they're paying a coal or hydro generation power wholesaler who is selling the co-op power for distribution.

There is no income taxation in Nevada with which to give a tax break (and I told the people from the NV Governor's Energy Task Force to not put in an income tax just so they could give a break), and the property taxation issue is largely up to the county level government.

Given that the risk-free return on capital was over 4% at the time (ie, just put your money into 10-year Treasury notes), there was no economic upside to installing a PV system. That's another thing I notice PV advocates often omit: opportunity cost.

[Clarks]

I gave you dollar figures,
I told you how long it would take to pay for itself.

a) net meters power, ie, pays you the retail rate for power you put back into the grid,

There is little reason for a homeowner to be on the grid.

b) you have a state with a (relatively high) income tax rate, and you get a tax break on your capital expenses,

Not relevant, you pay for the system, rather than pay the utility monthly

c) you get a property tax break for the property value increase from the installation,

Same

PV takes anywhere from 19 to 35 years to pencil out without subsidies and taxpayer largess.
It takes any where from a day to forever, it depends on what you spend, I gave you two dollar figures and how long it would take to repay based on $200.00 per month which I am guessing is an average electric bill, I have not paid an electric bill in 20 years, so I really don't know. I can tell you that if 200 bucks a month is reasonable, in 20 years I would have spent $48,000. In totalling the three systems on three homes that I have lived in the last 20 years, I have not spent that much.

[olecapt]

Clarks - Your position is not only wrong it is absurd.

And you insist upon it righteousness against two EEs who actually understand the numbers.

One can live off grid with PV. But one does not do it in conventional stick built houses with 24 hour AC in a hot desert climate.

Read your own source Clarks...they have it about right.

[Clarks]

Apparently you have not read my posts. Yes, one can do it, and do it easily. Go back and read each of my posts until you figure it out.

Funny thing, I sit here, the dishwasher just did a load of dishes, the kid ran the dryer this AM, the house is so cool I kicked the furnace on for a few minutes.

All on photo voltaics, so, while you boys whine about it not being doable, it is done, by me and thousands of others.

OH, the house? a standard modular.

You are like the flight engineer who is convinced, by look at his figures that bumblebees can't fly, yet, on flies the bumblebee.