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Old 10-03-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,835,514 times
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It is pretty silly to build large wind or solar plants miles from the need. Far better to make every building an energy producer, oh but then the big corporations don't get their money,, sad.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,341,843 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
It is pretty silly to build large wind or solar plants miles from the need. Far better to make every building an energy producer, oh but then the big corporations don't get their money,, sad.

Economics still heavily favor the solar thermal systems. Photovoltaic still needs a factor of two or more in cost to be viable.

Even when photovoltaic make sense it will still be neccessary to provide large industrial units...cities do not have enough roof per SF to be self energized. You also have the night problem and all that.

It does have to do with economics but little to do with corporations.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
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I understand what you are saying, but, give some numbers. What is the generation capacity of urban Las Vegas? I think we have an unknown.

Now, if one house can function on photovoltaics, why not a million? Photvoltaics work, you can run your house free of the grid, that is not quibbleable.

Large industrial units? Consider the acreage of flat roofs in your standard city, now, roof all parking lots,, a nice thing to do in Las Vegas, and, gives even more room for photo voltaics.

I believe that those who think we need large industrial generation sites miles from the use area are stuck on old think.
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Sheridan, WY
357 posts, read 1,413,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
I understand what you are saying, but, give some numbers. What is the generation capacity of urban Las Vegas? I think we have an unknown.

Now, if one house can function on photovoltaics, why not a million? Photvoltaics work, you can run your house free of the grid, that is not quibbleable.
When you've solved the problems of frequency and voltage regulation in a grid based on distributed generation, and ephemeral generation at that (ie, non-base load power sources), please write up a paper so that the utilities can implement it. They'll pay you quite handsomely to solve the problem.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
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First point, why have a grid?
Second point, why have a utility company?

You may have missed my point, the whole reason for point of use generation is to remove the need for the grid, or for utility companies, now, there may be heavy users that will require non point of use generation, but that isn't you, or me, or millions of others.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:19 AM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,341,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
First point, why have a grid?
Second point, why have a utility company?

You may have missed my point, the whole reason for point of use generation is to remove the need for the grid, or for utility companies, now, there may be heavy users that will require non point of use generation, but that isn't you, or me, or millions of others.
And you are missing the point. The initial use of photovoltaic solar will be as a peaking mechanism. It will provide power to the home and the grid at the peak of need in those places with hot climates. It will initially get a premium for the power as it is available at peak times.

But that first application is entirely based upon the use of the grid after hours. One still air conditions as the sun goes down.

Storage in the local home is simply hopelessly non-economic for the immediate future. It will be many years after solar arrays are common before any cost effective storage system is available...if it ever happens. It may even turn out that the grid is used to implement the storage mechanism. Pumping water up hill or heating salt still seems the best art.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,835,514 times
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I truly hate to disagree with someone who is convinced they are right, but, I have used photo voltaics to power my various homes most of my adult life and I am not a young man and I tend to have all the power I need.

funny that people have lived in cool homes in hot countries far longer than electricity has been in use. Air conditioning again, shows a terrible lack of imagination and is simply not needed in a well designed home.

There are three things you can do right now to lessen the need for air conditioning at your home. The easiest is to plant trees, Cottonwoods have been used and are used in Nevada.
You can paint your roof silver, or white.
You can build a roof one foot above your current roof with open ends and sides.

Funny thing, our home is shaded by an immense Black Walnut, I was splitting wood outside, in the heat, time for a break, I enter our home, my wife is watching the TeeVee wearing fleece pile sweats and wrapped in a blanket.

We have no air conditioning.

A common sense approach like ours is completely doable for any of us, the idea that somehow we need large industrial scale power generatiion, or that photovoltaics don't do the job is simply not accurate.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:39 PM
 
Location: NW Las Vegas - Lone Mountain
15,756 posts, read 33,341,843 times
Reputation: 2661
Where did I say it was not possible to build self contained houses that work fine off the grid? Stay on topic please.

The subject is the use of photovoltaic to provide energy. The target is NV. That says you need a plan that works in the 600,000 dwellings of Las Vegas...

I have a friend with a rarther elaborate off grid home in southern AZ. His home requires minimal AC if any. But the techniques used in his home would not work in an urban environment...

I have also designed and built such systems for light marine use and am very familiar with its parameters.

Back on track...

The first real usage of photovoltaic which will be commercially feasible in a big way is peaking power in places like the SW. On the commercial side I suspect thermal solar will still be the competitive winner for some years yet...and both need to get closer to coal before they are going to fly.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,835,514 times
Reputation: 816
Yawn, 6,000 bucks and you have a workable system. 30,000 bucks and you have a system that will handle your electric dryer,,, and yours,,, and yours ,,, and yours.

One house, 600,000 houses not a problem. My systems have worked in northern heavy snow country, ah do believe, the sunny climate of Las Vegas, or most any city in the country, pose no problem.

So now, what is your monthly electric bill, I can only guess, but say, an average of 200 per month, 2400 per year, 2400 goes into 6,000 3 times, you paid for your system in 3 years, after that it is gravy.

Now say you toss 30,000 in, you pay for your system in 13 years.

Well kids, hard to see a problem here.

There are those who see a truck stuck in the mud and say, heck that truck is stuck in the mud, tain't nuthin I can do. And then there is those who see a truck stuck in the mud and say, hey if I get that out with this here comealong and that there deadman, I got me a truck.

Ole Capn' you will persist in your belief, and reason shall not move you. I tell you photo voltaics work and work well, but my words bounce off you like bullets off a battleship.

But, there are others who understand that America has entered a new world, a world where mega industrial power generation with the transport of that power to the use area is just plain wasteful, wasteful of the land, and wasteful of the nation's money.
Here is a good place to start.
Rocky Mountain Institute : Abundance By Design
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