New Hampshire or Upstate New York? (Hudson, Hanover: real estate, property taxes, housing)

[homeward bound]

Hey all.

We've been wanting to return to Upstate New York (probably the Finger Lakes region) for a long time. (We're in Virginia now.) We want this for all the usual reasons: strong sense of community, beautiful old small towns/villages/small cities, a human/walkable scale to things, four seasons, fishing, swimming, a place where kids can have a real childhood, good schools, etc. Those of you who've been through Upstate NY will know why that (vast) area appeals to us. "It's like New England with elbow room," is how someone described it.

A good friend, though, keeps insisting that we look into New Hampshire instead.

We've never even been there--but it sure looks tremendous.

So my questions are:

1) Is New Hampshire really as beautiful as it's often said to be, and as the pictures on city-data.com show? I mean, every state has its ugly, but is there REALLY lovely old town after lovely old town amid unspoiled lakes, rolling farmland, forests, etc., as the pictures show and people say? Is it still NOT over-run with strip malls, over-development, etc.?

2) How would you compare Upstate New York to New Hampshire? You can approach this culturally, geographically, economically--anyway you want would be informative to us. (And don't worry: I already hate the Yankees and love the Red Sox. If I have to go to Hell, I don't want it to be for so absurd a sin as being a Yankee fan!)

3) My wife and I are both teachers. (She's an award-winning high school English teacher, and I'm going to switch from 21 years of teaching college English to teaching either elementary school or middle school math & science.) So what is the job market for experienced teachers? Where is it best? Do the schools have and support high standards? How is the pay & job-security?

4) I know this is a tough one, but about housing prices: how much would a pretty big (1800-3000 sq. feet) older home in semi-decent shape in a nice old town cost? Are stately colonials and victorians too coveted to be buyable for a couple of teachers?

Thanks in advance for any and all questions you can answer.

[WIMU]

Man to have to choose between upstate NY and NH is a tough one. I love upstate NY but I really do believe that NH is still the best state to be in for now. Yes Upsate NY does have the elbow room you describe byt NH has more of the ambiance of old times and the classic look. I love the Lake Placid area the best in NY. It seems that you could find good teaching jobs in NH and find reasonable housing costs if you are willing to drive a few more miles to be in the country but close enough to the good teaching ares such as Hanover, amherst, bedford, exeter etc.

[DareToDream]

Homeward Bound - I can't give you specific answers, but I can give you our experience. We moved to NH in April of 2006. My husband and I lived in the Mid-Hudson region of NYS. My son lives north of Albany. Hubby was part of an IBM "resource action" - he had 25+ years with the company when he was "resourced" (gotta love their terminology <g>)....After thinking about it, he decided he wanted to go back to his first love - woodworking. He worked in NY for about a year, then we decided we wanted to leave the area. We thought of moving north and staying in NY, then we decided to check out NH. We decided on Littleton, it's a lovely area and pretty much equidistant between my son and his family and hubby's daugher and her family in Maine.

We moved, rented for awhile to be sure we REALLY wanted to be here. Naturally, hubby took a major cut in pay....I do medical transcription from home and the move had no financial impact on me. Our total income dropped, but so did our living expenses. We had rented a house in NYS and we rented a house here in Littleton - we paid less rent here for a house with more space than in NYS, about $200/month less....Our electric bill was about $100/month less in a bigger house....our car insurance is about $800 less per year. My son in NY couldn't believe it.

In February we bought a house - a comparable house in NY, with the same type of location would have cost us at least 2.5 times more and the land/school taxes would have easily been 3-4 times more. We now pay for the water/sewer. The water/electric bill are billed together, we have an electric hot water heater and our bill has not been more than $80 a month, and that was a high bill, still way less than it would have been in NY, the sewer bill was about $50 less than we paid in NY. The heating bill for this house (which is oil, same as we had in NY and had to pay) is much less - we haven't been here for a full year yet, but going by what the previous owners payed for a year and what we paid in NY, it will be less. In NY, from November thru March, we paid $1100 for oil - according to the previous owners of this house, they paid $600 for the year and from February to now, it will probably be about the same for us (depending of course, on the price of oil per gallon). Plus we don't file taxes at the end of the year for NH the way we did for NYS, which saves us money.

Yes, the car registration fee is more per year in NH - I just paid mine and it was a total of $78, I think - part for the Town of Littleton, part for the State of NH...and I have an old car, so it's less than what it would be for a newer car (hubby has a 2005 vehicle, but he doesn't renew his registration until August, so I can't tell you what the fee for that is).

My son, who does not live in a totally rural area of NYS, but what I would call a semi-rural part and pretty comparable to the Littleton area, cannot believe what we paid for the house, our taxes, electric, oil, car insurance, etc. compared to what he pays....oddly enough, his house is smaller than this one and has less property with it and we don't have a lot - a little over 0.5 acres.

When we were looking at houses up here, there were quite a few of the colonial/victorian types for sale for under $200,000, but we didn't need all that room and they would have needed more work than we wanted to have to deal with.

I realize things in other areas of NH are different price wise, etc., I can only tell you about our experience and costs. There are some things we miss - even in the area where my son lives there are 3 or 4 grocery stores, here there is 1 (but I think there are 6 drug stores! <g>). There's not much "night life" in our area (I believe there is much more south of us), but we have yet to be bored - we usually find someplace to go if we want to do something. The pace of life is much slower than either in the Mid-Hudson region or even where my son is in upstate NY, and that's what we were looking for.

When we first came up here to "scout out" the area before moving, I was amazed at the amount of "open land" around....but again, this is up in the northern area, I don't know how much there really is south of here, and from what I gather, "open land" is a relative term - what I see as a lot, some who have lived here a long time say there isn't that much any more <g>.

The people here are comparable to what I found in the areas in and around where my son is in NYS - but much friendlier than what we had in the Mid-Hudson region.

I guess that's about all I can say about NY vs NH, and as I said, I couldn't address all your specific questions, just generalities. Someone who knows the state better than I do can probably give you more specific answers. I've also only been here for a little over a year, so perhaps I'm still looking at even this area through "rose-colored glasses", but frankly, I've never been happier or more at peace than I have been up here.

Good luck in your search!

[summer grace]

I would also be interested in upstate NY/ New Hampshire comparisons. I've long thought of how the two compare, because I'm interested in both areas, but have never been to either one. From pictures both seem rural, scenic, and historic, but I've always been interested in info beyond this, as well.

[southward bound]

That's a tough one, as another poster said. We lived in NH and sometimes travelled to upstate NY for vacations! Just for a change, I guess. I'd say that having no state income or sales tax in NH would make the difference for me. (Although there's no telling how long it will remain so.)

[homeward bound]

Thanks to all for your replies! Very helpful. We'd never even thought about NH until very recently, since Upstate NY is so beautiful, with so many options, and of course has a sentimental appeal to us since I'm from the Buffalo area originally.

If anyone can give some advice about the NH job situation for teachers, that would be really helpful.

One thing I have seen by looking at real estate on-line is that some of the NH towns are very expensive. Can anyone suggest stately, old-fashioned towns that are affordable--with, say, colonials and/or victorians in the $150,000 to $300,000 range? (We wouldn't mind having to fix them up--we're good at than and enjoy it.)

Also, are local property taxes high, to offset the minimal taxing that the state does?

Windchimes03561, we'll certainly look into your Littleton. Can you recommend similar towns? We don't need real lively nightlife or extensive shopping--just a good place to raise our two little ones (the older ones are off to college). We'd rather have our kids riding their bikes than cruising malls any day. And though ideally we'd love to work in our hometowns, we wouldn't mind having to drive to good-paying teaching jobs elsewhere, either.

By the way, Windchimes, I noticed that you're saving $800 on car insurance by having moved to NH. Wow! We've got two vehicles worth about $4,000 each here in Virginia, and we don't pay more than $600 total per year to ensure them--and that's in a college town notorious for its wild drivers. Your auto insurance must have been astronomical in NY!

Thanks again to all--and please feel free to chime in with more advice if you want/can.

[DareToDream]

homeward bound - Unfortunately, I know nothing about a teacher's salary here in Littleton, but I'm sure others will know more, as well as know more about the surrounding towns. Since we're relatively new, we've concentrated on getting to know "our town" first, before branching out <g>. We have friends in Lisbon, Bethlehem and Whitefield, so we do go there, just don't know a lot about the areas....of the three mentioned above, I like Bethlehem the best, but that's just me....they have the Colonial Theater (I think that's the name) that shows more "obscure" films (for lack of a better term), as opposed to new releases (Littleton has a theater that has the new release type films) - I think it's Whitefield that has the Weathervane Theater where they do plays during the summer and a children's series as well. Whitefield has the Black Bear Cafe, I believe is the name, which periodically has an open mic. Littleton also has an open mic, but that's pretty much hit and miss as to whether or not it's on <g>.....Littleton and Bethlehem each have "music in the park/gazebo" - Littleton on Friday nights, Bethlehem on Sunday afternoons...

The other night I was sitting out back and could hear the kids playing both at the park and on our street and as it got dark, I could hear the parents calling the kids to come home - it was really neat <g>.

Everything in NYS was higher (for us) than it is here in NH - I can't remember what my son said he pays for his car insurance, but I know it's at least $600 more per year than what we pay - he has one older car and one newer car, like we have.

If you google a real estate site, like Caldwell Banker, Century 21, etc., you should be able to find those in NH, they will have pictures and descriptions of houses for sale in various areas....there's also another site that has the MLS listings and for the life of me, I can't remember what it is.....SOMEBODY HELP!!!!!!

Again, this area of NH is not for everyone, the majority of the higer paying jobs are, I believe, in the central and definitely the southern parts of the state (someone correct me if I'm wrong)...we just know that we found our little "slice of heaven" up here and can't envision ourselves ever moving back to NYS, even with the beauty that NYS has to offer once you get away from the "citified" areas and suburbs - I personally like the NH scenery better.

Another thing I like better is the way NH roads are kept passable/cleared as opposed to NYS - heck we had our closing and moved during the Valentine's Day Blizzard with no problem! The winter before we left NY, we had a storm that left us about 12" and we couldn't even get into town (on Route 9 - one of the "major roads in the state) because the road wasn't touched

Anyway, hope this helps give you at least a general idea of this area - the best thing to do would be to find some areas you're interested in and take a trip to NH - I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[Earthangel1776]

There are many quaint New England towns in NH. If you are looking for a quintessential colonial period town, some of my favorites are Wentworth, Tamworth, Effingham, Mont Vernon, Hancock, Francestown, and Sandwich. I'm sure there are others, but these towns stand out in my mind as very historically significant and also unspoiled by rampant development. I also love Antrim, Harrisville, and Dublin. They each have a rich character of their own. Some towns are nice, but kind of "divey" due to careless zoning and thoughtless growth. Others are overly "touristified". Especially in the Lakes Region. You'll see plenty of those in your travels.

[summer grace]

I guess I get the impression that NY state is more expensive than New Hampshire then?

[DareToDream]

summer grace - In our experience, and when talking to friends and family who are still in NY, yes, it was/is still more expensive, but how much more expensive for things like utilities, land/school taxes and houses depends on the area of NY. We and the majority of family and friends who are still there, live(d) in the Mid-Hudson region, close enough to New York City that there was a huge influx of people from New York City that drove a lot of prices up - my son lives further north of where we were, and his expenses are less than ours were in NY, but still more than what our expenses are in NH. We were/are all east of the Hudson. I have no first-hand knowledge of the differences between there and areas west of the Hudson when it comes to housing, utilities, land/school taxes (I believe they are less in a lot of areas). The further north you go, it is also less than where we were. However, no matter where you are in NY, you still have to pay NYS tax on your income....

Of course, too, we also moved from a more "suburban" type of area to a much more rural area when we made the move to NH and we did not have to consider school districts and the like, nor did we have to be in an area where there were the higher paying jobs.