New Hampshire Property Taxes !!!! (Concord, Hancock: credit, public school, college)

[Burgermeister]

Originally Posted by FrugalYankee

I'm aware of that.

However, my husband told me of a Town Meeting he attended where the citizens spent 30 minutes whether or not to repair a door at the school for $300. They ended up voting it down.

I later saw the inside of the school with one of my stepdaughters. I asked her to show me the girls bathroom as I had heard frequently about the horrible condition of the physical plant at the school. Really it was a disgrace. And what does it say to our kids if we don't think they are worth physical conditions that a normal human being would regard as standard? If I tried to rent one of my rental properties out like that, the heath department would be on me like white on rice. It would have taken about $500 worth of supplies from the local building supply store and about 40 man-hours of elbow grease to get that bathroom into a condition that was not an insult to the kids but it's probably illegal to do it yourself.

When I lived in Japan, I visited many High Schools teaching English; some of them looked like they had been bombed in WWII. However, while their facades were dimmed by time, they were kept clean by the students themselves. And they were still being educated at a standard our average public schools would be hard to match. Which is why I am not against "socialism" as a concept, it's just not an American way of doing things.

[FrugalYankee]

Burgermeister in the grand scheme of things I agree with you. I'll be one of the first to say that learning can take place with the teacher drawing with a stick in the sand. As long as the spark of knowledge crosses from the teacher to the student, it IS a place of learning.

But for criminys sake, if you are going to label a room as a bathroom, the toilets should flush and the sinks should function. If they don't then lock the door and tell the girls they should go eliminate out in the woods. Which for NH is actually not that much of a stretch.

[Burgermeister]

Originally Posted by FrugalYankee

Burgermeister in the grand scheme of things I agree with you. I'll be one of the first to say that learning can take place with the teacher drawing with a stick in the sand. As long as the spark of knowledge crosses from the teacher to the student, it IS a place of learning.

But for criminys sake, if you are going to label a room as a bathroom, the toilets should flush and the sinks should function. If they don't then lock the door and tell the girls they should go eliminate out in the woods. Which for NH is actually not that much of a stretch.

The main problem here is that after the parents foisted their kids off to an institution of learning...they went back to doing whatever it was they were doing and forgot about them. Ultimately, it is this lack of parental involvement with their kids education that is at the root of these issues; not money. Surely, in the case you noted, one or more of the parents could have made the necessary repairs needed to have a working bathroom; this is New England for heaven's sake; more DIY types here per capita than most places!

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by Burgermeister

Actually, according to the dictionary, it is a form of "Socialism".

...(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

And since, publicly funded schools easily meet the definition of an imperfectly implemented socialist enterprise, they are by default; "socialist" in nature, if not in name.

I am not arguing that all socialist enterprises are bad, just stating that like it or not, publicly funded schools are in fact, socialist enterprises because their funding is based on collectivist principles.

Personally, I think NH made a mistake when it began taxing "donor" towns to pay for kids outside of their school districts.

For the record all of my kids were or are being homeschooled.

You live in the West. I don't think you realize how structurally different NH is compared to most states. You have to actually go and visit every town on an individual basis as they are all very different. The "broad brush" approach does not even remotely work in NH by thinking that one county or certain area is more desirable than others.

The inherent issue of the "donor towns" vs "receiving towns" is rooted in the archaic nature of property tax dependency and the fact that once employers leave certain towns with a larger population- the tax base quickly gets eroded. Therefore, the equalized tax rate goes up to highly elevated levels. This, in turn, makes it harder to get new businesses to come in and reinvest in the community because the inherent tax burden on commercial buildings is also HIGHER. Some cases of towns that have these issues that are systemic in nature are: Pittsfield, Claremont, Berlin, Newport, etc. Now HOW will schools be adequately funded when these towns cannot leverege new businesses and only get 10-15% from the state general fund for school operations at the "bare bones" level? I agree that parental responsibility is at the top of the list, but the cuts have already been as deep as possible. NH students do well given all the structural issues that the state faces regarding the issue.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by NHartphotog

My standard colonial in Exeter, which is not huge, and has under 1 acre of land, a new neighbor shining lights into my bedroom window all night long, and no architectural interest, now costs $1,100 per month in property taxes.

It wouldn't be too bad if we could sell and get out of here. We can't. Not even the most liberal will pay $13,000 a year in property taxes when the same house in the next town over only carries a tax of $6,000.

If you think you're doing okay in NH with YOUR level of property tax today, all it takes is a bunch of liberals getting into office and before you know it--and long before you could sell your house in this horrendous market--YOU TOO are locked into property taxes that will wipe you out unless you continue working until you drop dead (and everyone else in the house does too).

Just because you aren't yet paying $13,000 in property taxes on your NH house, don't feel safe and don't think there is no problem. I guarantee that soon your local government will have to deal with all those lucrative pensions and promises to government workers. And guess what? No matter what the cost, it will be divided among the property owners, and you will be sent the bill. Just because your house is only "worth" $200,000, don't think you can't get a tax bill for $15,000 a year--or $100,000 a year.

It will happen. Unfortunately, many of us will lose everything before anything changes. I wouldn't be surprised if 99% of us lose everything before anything changes, since government could care less what we think of their corruption and excesses.

Hopefully you will be able to leave Exeter as soon as you are able That kind of property tax burden is what is driving middle class younger people out of many areas of the state. It is very unfortunate My parents are retired and they are hoping to buy property in Moultonboro. Moultonboro is a property rich town, but the middle class also benefit from the much more reasonable tax rate. Otherwise, they will retire in a different state.

[FrugalYankee]

Coming back to this...
it wouldn't be so bad if the tax money were going to education, directly or indirectly. But more and more we are seeing the effects of aging physical plants. I suspect this is something that is less likely to be found out west in younger municipalities.

For example, the town of Unity was forced by the state of NH to shut down its elementary school for fire code violations, there have been reports of asbestos in NH schools, including private ones, where the EPA has stepped in and issued fines that have to be paid either by the taxpayers or by the parents of the kids in the private school. Across the river (OK not NH but someting similar could easily happen here too) there is a town that is paying something like $80,000 / yr to heat an empty school rather than risk a freeze or pay for whatever measures would be necessary to prevent a freeze. Those are all additional blows to districts that are already strapped.

Considering what has to be financed by property taxes in NH I don't even find them to be that high. One way or the other you are going to be taxed and all in all it is pretty minimal in NH.

[SuperSparkle928]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

Yes, schools= socialism according to you. I think most are smart enough to formulate their own thoughts and ideas about a wide range of issues. With the way our modern 21st century economy is structured, only a certain percentage of families homeschool. The funding issue in NH for schools based on 85% of revenues coming from commercial and residential entities within the town instead of the state results in a wide range of disparities in the tax rate on a town by town basis. NH is stuck in a precarious position due to property tax dependency and that impacts what type of residents move into and leave the state. The latest data indicates a continued out-migration of younger people and families out of the state. I do believe in the local model of high levels of resident input on spending decisions at the town level, but I don't see how that keep overall property tax burden and equalized tax rate from not rising further down the road. The only areas where this is tempered are the property rich towns that have extreme levels of tax revenue coming in from lakefront houses that are worth millions of dollars.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments....

1). I believe it should be up to the town/city to provide for its citizens, and provide the education necessary. The burden of this should not be dumped on other towns or the state. Just an opinion.

2). The out-migration of younger people and families actually is a benefit to the tax rates, as fewer children will be in the schools, and thus there is need for fewer of them. (The vast majority of property taxes go to the schools).

3). Your last statement of the 'property rich towns' is not entirely accurate. I live in one such town, and my monthly property tax is $2000, of which 75% goes to the school system. Something I have never used, nor ever will. I am in the process of moving out of town. I do not feel obligated to pay $1500/month to support those families that cannot support their offspring.

4). According to the (far-left) HSLDA (Home Schooling Legal Defense Association), they claim that home-schooled children perform better on SAT and other standard tests, at a cost of only about 10% of a public school. If that is true, then those parents that do not home-school are doing a great disservice to to both their children, and to the community. First, lower-performing students, and second, a waste of taxpayers' money.
And if the response to this observation is "We don't have time", or "We don't know how", well, then you should have thought of that in the first place.

5). Back to the initial topic, on NH property tax, one option is to do what I am about to do: move to unincorporated land. Essentially no taxes at all.
While not all these are tax-free:
Category:Unincorporated communities in New Hampshire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Many (but not all) of them are. You get police protection from the county, fire protection you may have to pay for (but is not bad), and that's it. No school taxes.

6). And yes, schools = socialism

whew.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments....

1). I believe it should be up to the town/city to provide for its citizens, and provide the education necessary. The burden of this should not be dumped on other towns or the state. Just an opinion.

2). The out-migration of younger people and families actually is a benefit to the tax rates, as fewer children will be in the schools, and thus there is need for fewer of them. (The vast majority of property taxes go to the schools).

3). Your last statement of the 'property rich towns' is not entirely accurate. I live in one such town, and my monthly property tax is $2000, of which 75% goes to the school system. Something I have never used, nor ever will. I am in the process of moving out of town. I do not feel obligated to pay $1500/month to support those families that cannot support their offspring.

4). According to the (far-left) HSLDA (Home Schooling Legal Defense Association), they claim that home-schooled children perform better on SAT and other standard tests, at a cost of only about 10% of a public school. If that is true, then those parents that do not home-school are doing a great disservice to to both their children, and to the community. First, lower-performing students, and second, a waste of taxpayers' money.
And if the response to this observation is "We don't have time", or "We don't know how", well, then you should have thought of that in the first place.

5). Back to the initial topic, on NH property tax, one option is to do what I am about to do: move to unincorporated land. Essentially no taxes at all.
While not all these are tax-free:
Category:Unincorporated communities in New Hampshire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Many (but not all) of them are. You get police protection from the county, fire protection you may have to pay for (but is not bad), and that's it. No school taxes.

6). And yes, schools = socialism

whew.

I am not in disagreement with several of those points. What I do disagree on is that the towns that have lost businesses and the ancillary tax base revenue that comes from them have a much harder time at attracting and developing new businesses when the inherent tax burden shoots up to much higher levels. Businesses aren't going to want to invest in the community unless they are absolutely certain that a certain business will succeed due to the fact they have to pay high levels of taxes on commercial buildings if they are more of a traditional "brick and mortar" business.

Ya, I was about to suggest unincorporated communities in NH, but I did not get around to mentioning that point. Also look at Hales Location. You might like that area.

[SuperSparkle928]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

I am not in disagreement with several of those points. What I do disagree on is that the towns that have lost businesses and the ancillary tax base revenue that comes from them have a much harder time at attracting and developing new businesses when the inherent tax burden shoots up to much higher levels. Businesses aren't going to want to invest in the community unless they are absolutely certain that a certain business will succeed due to the fact they have to pay high levels of taxes on commercial buildings if they are more of a traditional "brick and mortar" business.

Ya, I was about to suggest unincorporated communities in NH, but I did not get around to mentioning that point. Also look at Hales Location. You might like that area.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that companies don't want to come to an area that is highly taxed is almost universal. Companies are fleeing MA for that reason. NH is no exception. Taxing companies heavily is like killing the goose that laid the golden egg....
It is time for those individuals that want expensive resources (such as schools etc), to step up and pay for them. For those of us who don't want or use these resources, please don't force the rest of us to pay for them.
Perhaps someone would like a Lamborghini. Let's raise taxes to get him/her one.

Thank you for the tip about Hales Location. A little far north for me, but much cheaper than southern NH, and the taxes for the year are only one month's tax payment here...

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that companies don't want to come to an area that is highly taxed is almost universal. Companies are fleeing MA for that reason. NH is no exception. Taxing companies heavily is like killing the goose that laid the golden egg....
It is time for those individuals that want expensive resources (such as schools etc), to step up and pay for them. For those of us who don't want or use these resources, please don't force the rest of us to pay for them.
Perhaps someone would like a Lamborghini. Let's raise taxes to get him/her one.

Thank you for the tip about Hales Location. A little far north for me, but much cheaper than southern NH, and the taxes for the year are only one month's tax payment here...

With regard to companies leaving high tax areas that is definitely true to an extent. Those that will move to lower cost areas have already done so or will do so. If you look at the semantics of the situation from a NH perspective, however, you will also note that Carroll county has seen a net loss of jobs since 2000 and it has all the towns with the lowest tax rates in the state outside of the unincorporated towns. Carroll county is highly dependent on the real estate, 2nd home industry, and tourism industries and doesn't have a large quanitity of other higher paying jobs to fall back on. So, nearly 10% population growth in the county since 2000 but a nearly 10% loss in employment. I guess they figure they can keep on attracting more and more retirees as long as the tax rates stay "low enough" compared to the rest of the state.