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Old 10-27-2011, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Western, Colorado
1,562 posts, read 1,799,998 times
Reputation: 819

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SuperSparkle928 - thanks for injecting some reason and logic into this thread. I haven't seen a verbal pwning like that in a while.

Like you said, if people want all these "services", they can always move to states which have instituted them like NY and CA.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Barrington, NH!
750 posts, read 861,292 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalYankee View Post
SS thank you for your kind response. And please do not feel sorry for me growing up poor, I'm glad I did. Personally I think it builds character and self discipline.

I agree with our last post 100 % that this is the land of opportunity and also know people who started with little or nothing and achieved success, wealth and stability. I also want very much for it to stay that way and honestly don't see how that would be possible unless all kids are offered an education through high school that allows them to attend a college which will get them further in life and out of poverty for good. once they are out of high school and close to adulthood, even if they started out with a financial or familial disadvantage compared to others, there are ways for them to go to college if they want to.

I'm repeating myself I think so I'll stop, also this is getting into much deeper waters than the property tax issue.
Oh, this is related to property taxes. Because someone who thinks they shouldn't pay part of their property taxes to fund an education system still wants to reap the benefit of that education system (an educated society where everyone at least has a chance).

I can't believe we're talking about this! I've been to countries where there is no functioning education system (for those without the means). It doesn't work.

Those people who started with nothing (immigrated or US-born) didn't become successful by paying their own way through K-12. They relied on a taxpayer funded education system. Take that away and you'll see this country decline even further....
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Barrington, NH!
750 posts, read 861,292 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928 View Post
No flames here.... just a good chuckle about a very mis-guided individual.

1). “You really think that only people with kids should pay for the school?”
Yes

2). “Is that realistic?”
Yes

3). “Is that good overall in the long run for society?”
No. But neither is the illegal alien problem, nor the reckless population explosion.

4). “For those who can't afford the costs, I guess their kids shouldn't get an education?”
If I can’t afford my house/car/food/medical care, can I sponge off you to pay for it all?

5). The Afghanistan statement is entirely non sequitur.

6). “Oh yeah, I guess the answer is "your parents decided to have you, so it's up to them to figure it out and shoulder the burden". BS”
It is my responsibility (and major debt burden) that you can’t keep your pants on?
Let’s go to the dealership today, so I can get an Aston Martin, and you can help me pay for it.

6). “Perhaps those that are really opposed to it could move to an unincorporated area that bans children. That place would be a real hoot.”
Actually, it IS! I love it.
You're right. We should all stop having kids so we don't have to pay for their education.

The Afghanistan statement is entirely applicable. Much of the reason they are what they are today is because of poverty and lack of access to education. An uneducated population is a vulnerable and poor population.

Say what you want about "keeping your pants on", but people are going to have kids - it is hard wired into our being. I don't think it's too much to ask for society to provide a basic education to the people. Without it, we would, as another poster said, be back in the dark ages.

I understand the frustration about property taxes - I pay them in NH myself and get absolutely nothing for it since I live out of state, but your views on this subject undermine the success of the next generation, who we will rely on to keep this country moving when we leave the work force in our old age. If we stop educating our young as a society, what kind of country will be left for you in retirement 20-30 years from now? Not a very successful one.

Cutting publicly funded education may lower your property taxes, but in the long run we as a society will pay much more. Sorry, but I think that this is shameful and shortsighted...
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Monadnock area, NH
1,051 posts, read 1,142,067 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveusaf View Post
You're right. We should all stop having kids so we don't have to pay for their education.

The Afghanistan statement is entirely applicable. Much of the reason they are what they are today is because of poverty and lack of access to education. An uneducated population is a vulnerable and poor population.

Say what you want about "keeping your pants on", but people are going to have kids - it is hard wired into our being. I don't think it's too much to ask for society to provide a basic education to the people. Without it, we would, as another poster said, be back in the dark ages.

I understand the frustration about property taxes - I pay them in NH myself and get absolutely nothing for it since I live out of state, but your views on this subject undermine the success of the next generation, who we will rely on to keep this country moving when we leave the work force in our old age. If we stop educating our young as a society, what kind of country will be left for you in retirement 20-30 years from now? Not a very successful one.

Cutting publicly funded education may lower your property taxes, but in the long run we as a society will pay much more. Sorry, but I think that this is shameful and shortsighted...

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Old 10-27-2011, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
33,804 posts, read 29,233,166 times
Reputation: 15650
We have no children and gladly pay our property taxes for a first class k-12 education system, a very good library, and responsive police and fire departments. We consider educated kids an investment in the future and the police and fire departments insurance for the present.

I have no patience with cheapskates that benefit from town and state services but whine about paying for them. If you don't like the taxes move someplace else. Try Alaska, I hear they will let you live way out on your own and pay almost no taxes. Hell. They even pay you for living there from oil royalties. They have to to get enough people to have a state.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Monadnock area, NH
1,051 posts, read 1,142,067 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
We have no children and gladly pay our property taxes for a first class k-12 education system, a very good library, and responsive police and fire departments. We consider educated kids an investment in the future and the police and fire departments insurance for the present.

I have no patience with cheapskates that benefit from town and state services but whine about paying for them. If you don't like the taxes move someplace else. Try Alaska, I hear they will let you live way out on your own and pay almost no taxes. Hell. They even pay you for living there from oil royalties.
Cheap skates? I pay more in income tax alone than most people earn in a year and I'm the cheap skate?

I wouldn't complain so much about paying if every living person in the country each paid their $13,000 annual portion of the federal budget. The fact that half of the country pays no taxes is why people like me are completely fed up with the b.s.

I love paying the .gov to watch the teenagers during the day at the local public school only to have those dirtbag kids break in to my house while I'm away at work paying for everything, only to have the local PD that I pay for tell me "Well we don't have any answers... But I'm going on vacation tomorrow so I'll follow up with you in a week to see if you found anything."

Yeah wonderful system we have.

Greg tell me again why I should have to pay 40% of my income in Federal, State, and Local taxes while the s-birds down the street pay nothing while receiving money from the .gov?
Why do YOU feel entitled to my hard work?
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:33 PM
 
124 posts, read 148,839 times
Reputation: 99
The first article is from 2011, the second from 2007, the third from 2005 and sources back to 2002-003.
I'm not seeing where public schools are doing a bang up job.
But wait there is more.
Does anyone know who John Ogbu is, raise your hands kiddies.
These rich Black people moved to affluent Shaker Heights. They expected their kids to achieve. But the exact opposite happened. Confused they called in Ogbu, an Anthropologist.
He discovered a whole slew of inconvenient facts, like
Quote:
"The black parents feel it is their role to move to Shaker Heights, pay the higher taxes so their kids could graduate from Shaker, and that's where their role stops," Ogbu says during an interview at his home in the Oakland hills. "They believe the school system should take care of the rest. They didn't supervise their children that much. They didn't make sure their children did their homework. That's not how other ethnic groups think."
. ( While this study is specifically aimed at Blacks it carries the seeds of a problem which crosses race and economic status)
Until you have parents involved in their children's education, parents who take an active interest in the future of their offspring, no amount of money will compensate. ( Oh and once they stop hiring teachers who ONLY have degrees in Education, instead of those with Math and Science, you will see much more success in the school. It is also of interest that young Female teachers really don't understand young males, so they tend to interpret rambunctiousness as some type of learning disorder requiring medication. Plus few parents are willing to admit that their kid is just plain dumber than a box of rocks and instead seek the magic of learning disability to explain why Johnny can't read beyond a third grade level while being a senior in high school. These are the same parents who never pick up a book for pleasure and watch the most vapid uncomplicated television there is. television like sports and soaps and reality tv. How much money will fix that problem? I think they should pay a stupidity tax so kids who actually have a chance can be treated to a better education without being hindered by kids from homes that really don't care.)

Report shows high school graduates enter college unprepared | eSchool News

Quote:
The report says that of the students who enter college, nearly a third drop out after their first year—and 50 percent never graduate. Many students enter college not prepared for higher education, the report notes; at community colleges, nearly a million students reportedly take remedial courses each year at a cost of $1.4 billion.
Most Students Unprepared for College

Quote:
Only one quarter of high school students who take the standard number of college prep courses are prepared for their first year of college or an entry-level job, says a recent study by ACT, providers of the college entrance exam.
The reason is twofold: more than half of the states in this country don’t require students to take specific core curriculum courses in math or science in order to graduate, and the quality of these courses is poor. “Ideally, state standards should delineate what students ought to know and be able to do in their high school courses in each subject area so that students have a solid foundation on which to begin the next course,” the report says.
Public High School Grads Unprepared for College, Work | Heartlander Magazine

Quote:
The report was based on surveys of 1,487 public high school graduates from the classes of 2002, 2003, and 2004; 400 employers "who make personnel decisions," such as owners, company presidents, and others; and 300 instructors who teach first-year students at two- and four-year colleges. The surveys were conducted between December 4, 2004 and January 5, 2005. Depending on the group surveyed, response errors ran from plus or minus 3.8 percentage points to plus or minus 6.13 percentage points.
According to the survey, 39 percent--nearly two in five--of recent graduates who went to college after graduation said there were gaps in their high school preparation for the expectations of college. Moreover, even among those who reported feeling extremely well prepared for college, 31 percent took at least one remedial college course.
Among recent graduates who went to work right after high school, 39 percent reported gaps in their preparation for the workplace. The employers who were surveyed apparently agreed, estimating 39 percent of recent high school graduates were "unprepared for the expectations that they face in entry-level jobs.
Amazon.com: Black American Students in An Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement (Sociocultural, Political, and Historical Studies in Education) (9780805845167): John U. Ogbu, With the Assist Davis: Books

Black American Students in An Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement (Sociocultural, Political, and Historical Studies in Education)

Last edited by Gully Foyle; 10-27-2011 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Barrington, NH!
750 posts, read 861,292 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgthoskins View Post
Cheap skates? I pay more in income tax alone than most people earn in a year and I'm the cheap skate?

I wouldn't complain so much about paying if every living person in the country each paid their $13,000 annual portion of the federal budget. The fact that half of the country pays no taxes is why people like me are completely fed up with the b.s.

I love paying the .gov to watch the teenagers during the day at the local public school only to have those dirtbag kids break in to my house while I'm away at work paying for everything, only to have the local PD that I pay for tell me "Well we don't have any answers... But I'm going on vacation tomorrow so I'll follow up with you in a week to see if you found anything."

Yeah wonderful system we have.

Greg tell me again why I should have to pay 40% of my income in Federal, State, and Local taxes while the s-birds down the street pay nothing while receiving money from the .gov?
Why do YOU feel entitled to my hard work?
So instead of reforming public education to make it work better for society, we should just get rid of it altogether? Throw out the baby with the bath water? I don't disagree with many of the points you make about our education system, but that's no reason to pull the rug out from under the youth of America.

Also, you talk like all high school kids are breaking into houses and taking your stuff. Quite a sweeping generalization. The vast majority of high school kids in NH will become productive (and taxpaying) citizens, if given the chance at a basic education. From 2005-2008, I worked with many recent graduates of public education as a college instructor. The vast majority of them had their stuff in one sock (as much as you can expect an 18-20 year old to). Not every one of them was the sharpest tool in the box, but they sure as heck weren't criminals breaking into people's houses.

What the comment about the police has to do with this - I don't understand. Topic for another thread, I guess.

I agree that EVERYONE should pay taxes.

I also believe that everyone should pay for public education, through whatever tax it may be. It's an investment in our future, even if the product or process isn't perfect.

Maybe all this rage should be directed at changing the public education system instead of trying to get rid of it altogether. Maybe taking down the teachers unions would be a good first step?

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Old 10-27-2011, 03:39 PM
 
3,252 posts, read 3,068,714 times
Reputation: 1492
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
We have no children and gladly pay our property taxes for a first class k-12 education system, a very good library, and responsive police and fire departments. We consider educated kids an investment in the future and the police and fire departments insurance for the present.

I have no patience with cheapskates that benefit from town and state services but whine about paying for them. If you don't like the taxes move someplace else. Try Alaska, I hear they will let you live way out on your own and pay almost no taxes. Hell. They even pay you for living there from oil royalties. They have to to get enough people to have a state.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Umm.....
I wouldn't exactly say that Londonderry is a 'first class' in anything (I know, because I lived there for a few years). Most people rate it along side of Derry, Hudson, Pelham and Manchester. The library is miserable, and I would call the Derry PD/FD, as they were much better. Read the Londonderry police log, and see how 'wonderful' the town is. Ugh.
I benefit from essentially no town services, other than police and fire protection. No snowplowing, no trash pickup. Nothing. So the $24,000 a year in property taxes gets me... hmmm... Well, where I am now we do have one of the top 2 public schools in the state, even if I have no one using it.

Alaska is a wonderful state... also lived there for a few years. It has negative income tax (about $3000/year that they pay you), and all the schools are free for residents.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:51 PM
 
Location: at the end of a dirt road
3,071 posts, read 1,818,826 times
Reputation: 2155
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveusaf View Post
What the comment about the police has to do with this - I don't understand. Topic for another thread, I guess.
Not so fast there! Aren't police funded by property taxes? If so let's talk about village cops and their overkill SWAT/K-9 expensive vehicles and how LITTLE they do about real crime.
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