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I have a couple more contractors coming in the next couple of weeks. I want to get this taken care of this summer (especially the furnace replacement) so I have time to think about it and make a good decision.
If your plan is to replace your furnace this summer, Will you be replacing it with another Oil one or Propane?
I would suggest when you have your furnace replaced (I'm assuming it Hot Water Baseboard, But Forced hot Air can be zoned also ), Can the TV room and Back Bedrooms be put on a separate zone, so those room can be on the furnace at a normal room temperature, and the rest of the house you set at a lower temperature so it only goes on in the event of the Pellet Stove goes cold for some reason, or just can;t keep up?
If your plan is to replace your furnace this summer, Will you be replacing it with another Oil one or Propane?
I would suggest when you have your furnace replaced (I'm assuming it Hot Water Baseboard, But Forced hot Air can be zoned also ), Can the TV room and Back Bedrooms be put on a separate zone, so those room can be on the furnace at a normal room temperature, and the rest of the house you set at a lower temperature so it only goes on in the event of the Pellet Stove goes cold for some reason, or just can;t keep up?
Getting a new oil furnace -- NOT propane. Even for heating (when the price is supposedly lowest), propane prices are way above oil prices in my area and have been as long as I have lived here (15 years in this area, 5 years in this house). In addition, I have 2 oil tanks in my basement and they are 3/4 full (about 400 gallons left!). It's a forced hot air furnace, which I like -- I HATE baseboard heating systems (I know lots of people love them but I hate them because they are so obtrusive and hideous).
When the furnace is on, the TV room and back bedrooms are fine (the TV room has vents, and the back bedrooms are close enough to a hall vent that they get enough heat). But the oil furnace is usually my SECONDARY source (as I wrote in the OP) -- the pellet insert is my primary source. For my house layout, it actually works better (except for the TV room when I am in it!), and I got a great deal on pellets a couple of years ago.
I will ask the furnace techs about getting a zoned system, although I am now expecting the furnace to also cost more than I'd expected (and I budgeted $8,000, silly me ) so I don't know how much more I can afford. (Was trying to also add a small mudroom and large front porch AND remodel my kitchen this summer ... I can still do SOME of those even with the furnace but everything is adding up in a scary way!! )
If the Supply Duct services the TV and Back Bedrooms is one main duct, An Induct power damper can be installed, that open when the thermostat in the TV room calls for it, the Damper to the "Rest" of the house is (mostly [In closed position is normally open about ~10% to allow some air to go down that duct]) closed.
But the furnace must have a variable speed Blower, so it does not over pressure the duct when supplying Hot Air to only one zone.
(Any "other" rooms on the TV/BackBedroom zone can have the Vent Damper in the room closed to reduce the amount of Oil Hot Air heat that goes into them)
I have Hot Air Heat, and have two zones, One for 1st floor, One For 2nd Floor. But the layout of each house is different and how the ducts are run.
Propane tanks have problems delivering enough propane when cold. If you can store the tank inside (!) it wouldn't be a problem; and it's less of a problem as the temps rise. But when I looked into it, I realized that it was when it was below 0F that I really wanted my generator to work. I couldn't trust propane during winter. And of course gas generators have upkeep problems. So for now I just trust in PSNH.
This is absolutely NOT true. Propane works well to at least -20, often -30 for larger tanks. The boiling point for propane at normal pressure is -44. Problems arise when heat from the air can't get to the tank fast enough, such as being snow covered (snow insulates), too close to a building (unless it's heated and has bad insulation?) and such. IOW, the free standing tanks in the open do the best. I suppose buried would be the best of all, but they're getting rarer and a mess to put in.
Tank pressure might vary from 10 PSI at low temps up to 200+ at high temps. Regulators at the tank reduce this to about 0.5 PSI for the line to the appliances, so it takes a huge drop in temp to cause a problem for well designed systems.
Empire "gravity" wall furnace runs without electric supply
I like the Empire heaters because they will provide heat as long as they have propane, do not require a power supply to operate.
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Originally Posted by bigbear99
Quote:
Propane tanks have problems delivering enough propane when cold. If you can store the tank inside (!) it wouldn't be a problem; and it's less of a problem as the temps rise. But when I looked into it, I realized that it was when it was below 0F that I really wanted my generator to work. I couldn't trust propane during winter. And of course gas generators have upkeep problems. So for now I just trust in PSNH.
This is absolutely NOT true. Propane works well to at least -20, often -30 for larger tanks.
The key phrase here is "for larger tanks". Small tanks do have problems with supply pressure when very cold. The easy workaround to this is to go with larger and/or underground tanks.
If the Supply Duct services the TV and Back Bedrooms is one main duct, An Induct power damper can be installed, that open when the thermostat in the TV room calls for it, the Damper to the "Rest" of the house is (mostly [In closed position is normally open about ~10% to allow some air to go down that duct]) closed.
But the furnace must have a variable speed Blower, so it does not over pressure the duct when supplying Hot Air to only one zone.
(Any "other" rooms on the TV/BackBedroom zone can have the Vent Damper in the room closed to reduce the amount of Oil Hot Air heat that goes into them)
I have Hot Air Heat, and have two zones, One for 1st floor, One For 2nd Floor. But the layout of each house is different and how the ducts are run.
I will definitely ask all the contractors about this -- thanks for the info!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear99
This is absolutely NOT true. Propane works well to at least -20, often -30 for larger tanks. The boiling point for propane at normal pressure is -44. Problems arise when heat from the air can't get to the tank fast enough, such as being snow covered (snow insulates), too close to a building (unless it's heated and has bad insulation?) and such. IOW, the free standing tanks in the open do the best. I suppose buried would be the best of all, but they're getting rarer and a mess to put in.
Tank pressure might vary from 10 PSI at low temps up to 200+ at high temps. Regulators at the tank reduce this to about 0.5 PSI for the line to the appliances, so it takes a huge drop in temp to cause a problem for well designed systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonesuch
The key phrase here is "for larger tanks". Small tanks do have problems with supply pressure when very cold. The easy workaround to this is to go with larger and/or underground tanks.
As I wrote in a previous message (end of #9 in this thread), in 15 years of living with propane tanks in New Hampshire I've never had a problem with them even in our coldest weather. The tank at my previous house (which I still own but rent out) AND the tank at my current house are both 120-gallon tanks. No issues at all.
(Are underground tanks even allowed in NH? I had an underground oil tank at my last house but had it taken out within 2-3 years of living there.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonesuch
I like the Empire heaters because they will provide heat as long as they have propane, do not require a power supply to operate.
Pretty sure that Empire was the brand I had at my last house as well (but I rarely used it). At first the company suggested Rinnai but when I looked them up, I saw that all the models the company sells require electricity to run (not just run the blower). I was surprised to say the least; they didn't work for my purposes at all.
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Originally Posted by Gerania
If you're without power, do the TV room and back bedrooms need to be warm?
Well, some rooms in the house would need heat (the room[s] that I would be using during the outage -- doesn't really matter which room[s], just that heat is available somewhere in the house), and it doesn't seem to make sense to add a propane heater to a room that already has heat in normal conditions.
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Still thinking this through. I have 2 more companies coming the week of May 22nd. Lots of money going out this summer!!
This is absolutely NOT true. Propane works well to at least -20, often -30 for larger tanks. The boiling point for propane at normal pressure is -44. Problems arise when heat from the air can't get to the tank fast enough, such as being snow covered (snow insulates), too close to a building (unless it's heated and has bad insulation?) and such. IOW, the free standing tanks in the open do the best. I suppose buried would be the best of all, but they're getting rarer and a mess to put in.
Tank pressure might vary from 10 PSI at low temps up to 200+ at high temps. Regulators at the tank reduce this to about 0.5 PSI for the line to the appliances, so it takes a huge drop in temp to cause a problem for well designed systems.
Perhaps you can explain it to me then. I looked into picking up a Winco propane generator at one point, and read their info as to what size tank I needed, to work down to say -20F. I used this page to nix the idea.
I figure, a 6,500W generator would bring everything up in my house (but this is barely enough). That means 13hp motor. What duty cycle should I use, once everything is up? Might as well assume 50%, as the surge load won't last long. But running a fridge, furnace and some lights, along with the well pump kicking off and on, that could be a decent approximation. That means 65k BTU per hour.
Now look at the vaporization rate table. A 100 pound tank will likely work down to 40F, as would 200lb and 420lb. The 200lb will go down to say 10F. IMO, that's just borderline for our winters. Yeah its usually not that cold, but... you get the idea. And the vaporization rate takes a steep drop as you swing below zero.
What I estimated was that I need at least a 200lb tank if not 420lb tank. And the typical 20lb BBQ tank is far out of the question.
Where am I wrong?
Edit: I see that I missed Nonesuch's response, sorry about that.
supton, according to that web page, even a 500 gallon tank setup won't work below 40F for an 8000 watt generator. Clearly not true. Also, propane freezes at -306F, not -44. At -44, it stops boiling, although it will still have some vapor pressure.
I think part of the discrepancy is that they sell kits for carburetor conversion, not for true natively powered propane generators.
... Now look at the vaporization rate table. A 100 pound tank will likely work down to 40F, as would 200lb and 420lb. The 200lb will go down to say 10F. IMO, that's just borderline for our winters. Yeah its usually not that cold, but... you get the idea. And the vaporization rate takes a steep drop as you swing below zero.
What I estimated was that I need at least a 200lb tank if not 420lb tank. And the typical 20lb BBQ tank is far out of the question.
Where am I wrong?
This makes no sense to me at all. As I've written in this thread (twice now ), I've had 120-gallon tanks (outside) in NH for 15 years now and have never had an issue with the propane not working even during our coldest spells. (I don't have a lot of propane appliances, but my water heater is run by propane and obviously I use that every day, so it's not as though I'm just not using propane-fueled items in really cold temps.) Outdoor propane tanks are VERY common where I live, since there's no natural gas available. Supton, your sources seem very "off" even though they should be reliable? Who knows. My own experience with the tanks is simply vastly different.
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Empire "gravity" wall furnace runs without electric supply
), I've had 120-gallon tanks (outside) in NH for 15 years now and have never had an issue with the propane not working even during our coldest spells. (I don't have a lot of propane appliances, but my water heater is run by propane and obviously I use that every day, so it's not as though I'm just not using propane-fueled items in really cold temps.) Outdoor propane tanks are VERY common where I live, since there's no natural gas available. Supton, your sources seem very "off" even though they should be reliable? Who knows. My own experience with the tanks is simply vastly different. 
