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Old 06-05-2017, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
2,317 posts, read 2,624,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
The price he paid sounds low, unless the car was beat to crap. The $7.50/hour was crew leader wages in the union factory I worked in 1977 (4.35/hour was beginning rate with either a nickel or dime shift differential, time and a half on Sundays).
Yeah, I was making 4.85 at Waumbec mills in 77 ..non union and a 72 GS though not in the "magical" musclecar league it is nwo would still pull in 2000-2500.00 in good condition
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Old 06-05-2017, 05:42 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
443 posts, read 290,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDave View Post
Last time I said that I was figuratively skinned alive
A great article I read on this years ago. PayPal founder Peter Thiel on education bubble.

"Instead, for Thiel, the bubble that has taken the place of housing is the higher education bubble. “A true bubble is when something is overvalued and intensely believed,” he says. “Education may be the only thing people still believe in in the United States. To question education is really dangerous. It is the absolute taboo. It’s like telling the world there’s no Santa Claus"
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Barrington, NH!
1,209 posts, read 1,809,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeviDunn View Post
A great article I read on this years ago. PayPal founder Peter Thiel on education bubble.

"Instead, for Thiel, the bubble that has taken the place of housing is the higher education bubble. “A true bubble is when something is overvalued and intensely believed,” he says. “Education may be the only thing people still believe in in the United States. To question education is really dangerous. It is the absolute taboo. It’s like telling the world there’s no Santa Claus"
The problem is that everyone thinks that "education" means 4 year college degree. Education runs through a continuum from 4+ years of college, 2 year associate degrees, certificate programs, shorter technical "boot camp" style training, apprenticeships (paid and unpaid), to on-the-job training. In NH, there are many good jobs that can be had with a 2 year degree or less. But kids (and especially parents) have fallen victim to the idea that they have to have a 4 year degree to be successful. There are many fields that DO require 4 or more years of college, for sure. But trying to shove someone through college that may not want to be there or doesn't even know what they want to do is a waste of money and time. Perhaps a 3 or 6 month accelerated technical training program might be better suited (advanced manufacturing, for example). These can be had relatively cheaply at local community colleges and offer a decent return on investment. Apprenticeships for the trades are an even better deal. The biggest obstacle to this working is the stigma that "education" has to be a 4 year college degree, and NH kids have to value this work (and want to get their hands dirty). Not everyone can make a living in their parent's basement posting youtube videos.

I work at the Thompson School of Applied Science at UNH - the 2-year degree granting school of UNH. We train people in land-grant type of programs in agriculture, forestry, civil technology, animal science, culinary arts, and veterinary technology. Many of our students have no desire to obtain a 4 year degree. They like the intense hands on (hands dirty) aspect of our programs. There are even students there, though, who would be better off in an apprenticeship or certificate program and not in the college environment.

With the economy the way it is now, employers are more open to training employees themselves to learn trades and skills. During the recession, they didn't want anything to do with it. They wanted experienced people or a degree. Funny how things change in a decade.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:14 AM
 
4,704 posts, read 4,819,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
I still don't get it. Are these the same jobs that American kids used to do? They say they can't find American kids to do the jobs. Why? Has the pay gone done relative to what it used to be? Are American kids too lazy and spoiled? Are there so many good summer jobs for the American kids that they don't want to take these jobs? Any ideas?
Back to the original post.

The reason that there are foreign seasonal workers is that the US is at full employment.

Full employment in the segment that the OP is stating. Summer jobs. Seasonal jobs.
Seasonal jobs that high schoolers get and college students usually get.

The debate about college versus no college is another subject and should be in a different thread.

The debate about the video What Simon Sinek Got Right about Millennials is bunk. That debate has been around since Socrates.
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:59 AM
 
Location: New Hampshire
443 posts, read 290,935 times
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Quote:
The reason that there are foreign seasonal workers is that the US is at full employment.
Could easily debunk this and take thread into new direction. If you believe the Keynesians and Feds, U.S. is at full employment ; but imo the Austrian economists destroy the 'full employment' myth.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:30 AM
 
3,557 posts, read 1,816,472 times
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As I noted earlier, the bottom line is that there is a supply and demand issue. H2B visas are limited to 66,000 annually. I found out that they are broken into two. The first 33,000 were filled by March. Further, there was always an exception to the limit - returning workers were not counted in the limit. But Congress let that provision expire.

So it comes down to raising the wages that will attract local high school and college age kids to these jobs. Again, if a kid has the opportunity to earn minimum wage to either work in a kitchen or in an air conditioned office/store, which are they going to choose?

I will say that back in my day, I did work summers in assembly plants and landscaping during college. It gave me an appreciation for working with my head instead of my hands. It also taught me to teach my kids to look for other opportunities for summers in college that paid better and gave them opportunities to learn more about their chosen educational path.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:47 AM
 
422 posts, read 175,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
It's a good lesson for them to work at a menial job. There are quite a few summers between the last two of high school and the end of college so they could spend ONE summer working at a menial job. Maybe when they grow up they'd know what it's like to mow a lawn or shovel snow instead of paying someone to do it for them. How are they ever going to learn? And, showing up for a job proves that you have a work ethic.

So they are doing better things, some of them at least. And others are in mom's basement. So we have to import foreign workers. It's a shame that kids in other parts of the country couldn't somehow be transported out here, poor kids who might want a job. I mean, even at the CAPE, they can't find kids to work for the summer. Some kid from places we keep hearing about, like West Virginia, wouldn't like a chance to spend the summer working at the Cape? Housing is provided, according to the articles I read.

Grew up in NJ(down the shore)during the 50's,60's and 70's.Spent summers at camp in the Berkshires not for a week like kids do now,8 weeks it was great.When I was old enough to work (15)we were lucky becuase there were still many of the old Fashion Hotels still around at the shore and that is where we all worked.Started off as a bell hop...no elevators in these summer only hotels.Then,got a job a few years later in the summer as the kitchen stewart basicly the Chefs right hand man ,did that for two summers and then all so was a camp counselor in the Berkshire''s at the lake front.Got to say some didn't pay great but had a blast at all of them.

If it's me I would have personally gone around to all the local High schools and done like a job fair.
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Old 06-06-2017, 07:02 AM
 
1,332 posts, read 941,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDave View Post
Mmm..how many of them do you work with? Train? Yeah we have always had layabouts just seems more prevalent these days
Plenty, but they're Mechanical Engineers, Usability/Human Factors specialists, Designers (GD/ID), etc.

I do realize in the trades competent motivated help is hard to come by. I see this really as a 'sticky wages' issue, as opposed to being a generational issue. Vocational schools 30 years back attracted intelligent hardworking students who saw viable career paths, but wages have been driven downward and now 'voke kids' is a derogatory term as these schools attract 'bottom barrel' types. The viable career paths are meager at best.

So now, the mid-range kids who, in prior job markets, would have graduated high school into decent paying trades jobs are now electing to load up on college debt as the job opportunities are otherwise limited.

Hell, my buddies pulling $70k-90K as BMW techs all have/had undergrad debt. Those who didn't load up on debt gaining an Associates Degree at a trades college are doing brake jobs at Meineke making a pittance ... gotta pay to get paid in this wonderful economy.

I'm a strong advocate for moving towards apprenticeship/CO-OP focused educations, as it better serves both student and industry.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:42 AM
 
3,557 posts, read 1,816,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrewsburried View Post
Plenty, but they're Mechanical Engineers, Usability/Human Factors specialists, Designers (GD/ID), etc.

I do realize in the trades competent motivated help is hard to come by. I see this really as a 'sticky wages' issue, as opposed to being a generational issue. Vocational schools 30 years back attracted intelligent hardworking students who saw viable career paths, but wages have been driven downward and now 'voke kids' is a derogatory term as these schools attract 'bottom barrel' types. The viable career paths are meager at best.

So now, the mid-range kids who, in prior job markets, would have graduated high school into decent paying trades jobs are now electing to load up on college debt as the job opportunities are otherwise limited.

Hell, my buddies pulling $70k-90K as BMW techs all have/had undergrad debt. Those who didn't load up on debt gaining an Associates Degree at a trades college are doing brake jobs at Meineke making a pittance ... gotta pay to get paid in this wonderful economy.

I'm a strong advocate for moving towards apprenticeship/CO-OP focused educations, as it better serves both student and industry.
Actually it's quite the opposite today. The technical high schools have entrance exams and they are no longer accepting the cast offs from the traditional high schools. At one point, one the school districts that fed into the local tech school was considering leaving because their best students were choosing to go the the tech. My FIL taught at a tech school about 30 years ago and often remarks that most of the kids there weren't interested in learning. The few that were are very successful today.

Today, many of the tech kids go on to future education instead of straight into the work force. In my neighborhood, I know of 7 recent graduates of tech high schoolsl - 4 are in or going to college to expand on their technical training and 3 went straight into the workforce.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 49,538,721 times
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I never wanted to "work". I had enough of that by the time I was 14 years old. I was the mechanic for a small amusement park owned by my frequently drunk stepfather. If that was work I wanted nothing to do with it. Once I tried working on a dairy farm. I wanted that even less. What I wanted was an annuity so I could set up my own metal working shop and not have to make a profit.


After 'Nam I worked as a machinist in a high tech factory. Decent pay but I had to follow orders from some college graduate too dumb to take off his tie before walking into a machine shop full of spinning lathes. I did and still do not like taking orders, let alone following them.


So I studied for and received a Bachelors Degree in Environmental Science and spent the next 40 years investigating pollution events, enforcing regulations, directing spill cleanups and eventually working with a pollution monitoring and tracking program. A few years ago I finally achieved my goal. I retired with a decent pension and great health insurance. That is the equivalent of an annuity. Unfortunately diabetes and neuropathy are destroying the use of my hands for much more than typing so metal working is not an option. I can't have everything and I am pretty well satisfied with what I have.


This story is relevant because without the college degree I would never have made enough money working for anyone else or myself to have this retirement income. If I were counseling young folks I would recommend studying for a 4 year degree while spending or borrowing as little money as possible. If they did not like academics then I would recommend a service trade like HVAC or electrician because they would not be as vulnerable to economic fluctuations as a factory worker or miner.
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