A great disappointment (2009, price, vs)

[rmcewan]

Originally Posted by sgthoskins

I couldn't agree more.

"Unions, wrecking one American industry at a time"

You may be surprised to hear that I too wholeheartedly agree we should not bail out the auto industry. These guys have:
(a) ignored market demand and knowly that oil was going to go up over time and yet put out more and bigger-engined cars and trucks while euro and asian manufacurers were slimming down to 6 and 4 cylinder configurations and lowering curb weight;
(b) loaded their production scheudle and dealerships with top-end, all-option models and then claim "FROM" prices that can't be found on the lot and forcing most customers to be up-sold thus requiring more credit. The few base models they sell are just loss-leaders for the all the options they'll scam you for on the other models. Seriously, NAV is STILL a $2500 option when you can buy a portable one for $99?
(c) given or arranged credit to just about anyone to buy or lease those up-sold vehicles just like the mortgage industry.
(d) competed solely on MSRP discount, rather on value or quality.

I'm just glad that NH does not depend on the US auto giants - because at least one of the three will need to fall.

I don't feel unions are totally to blame. Successful foreign auto companies build or assemble some vehicles in the US, and the resulting product is often cheaper and of better quality, but still built by union labor.

[sgthoskins]

Originally Posted by rmcewan

I don't feel unions are totally to blame. Successful foreign auto companies build or assemble some vehicles in the US, and the resulting product is often cheaper and of better quality, but still built by union labor.

I am not surprised to hear you don't want to see them bailed out.

The unions can take "most" of the blame, but you're right not all of the blame. The end product is still inferior to Japanese products. Demand, sales trends, and re-sale value will support that statement. Here is a good interview from a couple of years ago.

The Guardian

My Tacoma wasn't built buy union employees.

[rmcewan]

Originally Posted by sgthoskins

I am not surprised to hear you don't want to see them bailed out.

The unions can take "most" of the blame, but you're right not all of the blame. The end product is still inferior to Japanese products. Demand, sales trends, and re-sale value will support that statement. Here is a good interview from a couple of years ago.

The Guardian

My Tacoma wasn't built buy union employees.

It's just a shame, because it was avoidable 10 years ago. I'm on my 4th Jeep Grand Cherokee. Also my last, because each successive model (same model each time) has been of lower quality and had fewer features standard. When Jeep replaced the Cherokee (non-grand model) with the Liberty, they jumped the shark. Here you had a great 3vehicle line up, Wrangler, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee. They cut the Cherokee and replace it with a heavier, vastly more expensive model (Liberty). Then, suddenly we're inundated with new models: Commander - massive, heavy but barely more room inside than the Grand Cherokee. Compass, Patriot, and the new Liberty is a rebadged Dodge Nitro for heaven's sake! WHY!!???!? A fantasic brand, known the world over as THE American 4x4 brand suddenly panics when Hummer comes along and starts stealing yuppies away. Bad management through and through.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by movingover

Well there's a lot of misinformation in this thread. I saw someone use the term neocon in relationship to economic policy. Neoconservatives generally don't have any unifying economic doctrine, and people don't understand that neocons are ex-Democrats who want to apply the formerly Democrat principals of spreading freedom to other nations under despotism, sometimes through force or the threat of force. These ideas were traditionally anathema to conservatism.

In any event, I doubt many people in NH knew what they were voting for when they chose Obama. Rather than try to characterize how red a town should be, let me just talk about the basic values I'm looking for in a community.

I'm looking for a community that values self determination, and doesn't rely on government to solve all your problems. I'm looking for a community that respects the fruits of one's labor, even if they are above and beyond what others have, and doesn't think that it's a civil-rights issue or a human rights issue to take so called "excess" wealth from individuals' annual income and redistribute it to people who already pay no taxes. I'm also looking for a community that believes in the 2nd amendment. I am not a gun owner or even interested in them, but I have no trust in a government that tries to strip Americans of this constitutional right. I'm also looking for a community that respects free speech, which means even if it were a Democrat leaning community, it would be opposed to the so called "Fairness Doctrine", which is nothing but a blatant attempt to shut down conservative talk show hosts.

To those who think the so called rich don't pay enough taxes, well let me tell you I am one of those people. I am looking to move out of NY, I earn a bit over $250k each year. The increases in taxes at both the income and payroll level have forced me to recognize there is no point that I work 80 hours a week to maintain this level of income. Instead I will take a 55% pay cut and move to a tax free state, like NH. The federal government will as a result see a massive reduction in actual tax revenue from me. I am not alone, probably tens of thousands of people like myself will be doing the same, and will be flooding into purple states like NH, PA (low taxes compared to NY), and the red state of TX.

This will be an interesting economics lesson for liberals in this country that really think that socialism works. I can afford to leave the game for a while in NY, live a comfortable lifestyle up in NH (even with my $250k I struggle and can't afford anything but an apartment in the NYC suburban area), and then return at a later date when we have a congress and president that doesn't take their policies right out of the works of Carl Marx.

So with that all said, can someone tell me which towns value those tenets that I listed above? It may very well be that towns that voted for Obama value these things, and they will just come to realize they made a big mistake.

I am glad you brought this up. I am just in the process of finishing up the book "They Knew They Were Right- The Rise of the Neocons" by Jackob Heilbrunn. It is an interesting intellectual read to say the least.

[OCCASparky]

Originally Posted by rmcewan

It's just a shame, because it was avoidable 10 years ago. I'm on my 4th Jeep Grand Cherokee. Also my last, because each successive model (same model each time) has been of lower quality and had fewer features standard. When Jeep replaced the Cherokee (non-grand model) with the Liberty, they jumped the shark. Here you had a great 3vehicle line up, Wrangler, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee. They cut the Cherokee and replace it with a heavier, vastly more expensive model (Liberty). Then, suddenly we're inundated with new models: Commander - massive, heavy but barely more room inside than the Grand Cherokee. Compass, Patriot, and the new Liberty is a rebadged Dodge Nitro for heaven's sake! WHY!!???!? A fantasic brand, known the world over as THE American 4x4 brand suddenly panics when Hummer comes along and starts stealing yuppies away. Bad management through and through.

I've got an '08 Liberty, and I'm not complaining a bit. It's a wonder I didn't dump my Ford sooner.

[sgthoskins]

Originally Posted by rmcewan

It's just a shame, because it was avoidable 10 years ago. I'm on my 4th Jeep Grand Cherokee. Also my last, because each successive model (same model each time) has been of lower quality and had fewer features standard. When Jeep replaced the Cherokee (non-grand model) with the Liberty, they jumped the shark. Here you had a great 3vehicle line up, Wrangler, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee. They cut the Cherokee and replace it with a heavier, vastly more expensive model (Liberty). Then, suddenly we're inundated with new models: Commander - massive, heavy but barely more room inside than the Grand Cherokee. Compass, Patriot, and the new Liberty is a rebadged Dodge Nitro for heaven's sake! WHY!!???!? A fantasic brand, known the world over as THE American 4x4 brand suddenly panics when Hummer comes along and starts stealing yuppies away. Bad management through and through.

That is a shame. I have heard nothing but good things about the Cherokees in the past.

What are you going to move to on your next new purchase?

[GregW]

A UNION is the only way workers can expect fair and unforced dealings with any employer. Simply put the single worker can be economically devastated by the decision of a company while a company cannot be harmed by the decision of a worker. The company has the power and the worker does not. Unions level the playing field.

[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

[seamusnh]

Originally Posted by GregW

A UNION is the only way workers can expect fair and unforced dealings with any employer. Simply put the single worker can be economically devastated by the decision of a company while a company cannot be harmed by the decision of a worker. The company has the power and the worker does not. Unions level the playing field.

Disagree. Employees can leave an employer if they are not treated fairly. If you don't like GM, go work for Ford or Toyota or Honda or... Unions are needed when there is a monopoly as in those cases, the employees do not have a choice...

[rmcewan]

Originally Posted by sgthoskins

That is a shame. I have heard nothing but good things about the Cherokees in the past.

What are you going to move to on your next new purchase?

I shall split the difference. AWD Minivan** <shudder> for kiddy capacity, and **maybe** I can find an old beater Land Rover Defender or LWB for the dirty work. Failing the landrover, I'll look into the last model Cherokee (non-Grand).

**AWD Minivan: Which means Toyota because idiot stupid Detroit thinks a heavy, gas guzzling 4x4 Super-SUV is what you need for carrying kiddies in snow and ice.

[sgthoskins]

Originally Posted by seamusnh

Disagree. Employees can leave an employer if they are not treated fairly. If you don't like GM, go work for Ford or Toyota or Honda or... Unions are needed when there is a monopoly as in those cases, the employees do not have a choice...

+2 there are so many employment laws and you don't have the right to work for a company. If they change policy and you don't like it resign... This entitlement bull crap is getting tiresome.