A great disappointment

[sgthoskins]

Originally Posted by rmcewan

I shall split the difference. AWD Minivan** <shudder> for kiddy capacity, and **maybe** I can find an old beater Land Rover Defender or LWB for the dirty work. Failing the landrover, I'll look into the last model Cherokee (non-Grand).

**AWD Minivan: Which means Toyota because idiot stupid Detroit thinks a heavy, gas guzzling 4x4 Super-SUV is what you need for carrying kiddies in snow and ice.

Have you looked at the Honda Pilot? The 2009's are super slick.

Not sure what they get for gas mileage however.

[rmcewan]

Originally Posted by sgthoskins

Have you looked at the Honda Pilot? The 2009's are super slick.

Not sure what they get for gas mileage however.

The 09 is very nice looking, but I'm quite disappointed with Honda actually. I liked the pilot on price-point and capacity (it is one of very few vehicles that will easily take three carseats on the 2nd row. However - MPG is slight worse this year mostly due to the increased weight of the new body - and the MSRP seems to have risen by several thousand vs earlier models. If they come down next year, then it'll be an option over the dreaded minivan!

[seamusnh]

We are on our last minivan. A 2000 Toyota that refuses to die, much to my wife's disappointment... Just turned 200k. I have teenage daughters and we got a 2001 Subaru Forester two years ago for them to drive. It is a safe car and fun to drive...

[movingover]

Originally Posted by GregW

A UNION is the only way workers can expect fair and unforced dealings with any employer. Simply put the single worker can be economically devastated by the decision of a company while a company cannot be harmed by the decision of a worker. The company has the power and the worker does not. Unions level the playing field.

[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

This is so wrong. For reasons others have mentioned plus some more. The market enforces a certain degree of fairness. If the employee is truly skilled and valuable then they can find work at a competitor. And it's not universally true that an employee can't hurt the quality of its company. They can take valuable experience with them, causing their employer to retrain at a cost that can be difficult to fully appreciate.

[Katlakat]

We have some true patriotic rebels in our town. Someone during the night removed all the signs from a majority of the streets and stockpiled them in the woods, and set them aflame. LOL
Way before the elections btw. Ha Love it! LOL

[thisguyrighthere]

Originally Posted by movingover

This is so wrong. For reasons others have mentioned plus some more. The market enforces a certain degree of fairness. If the employee is truly skilled and valuable then they can find work at a competitor. And it's not universally true that an employee can't hurt the quality of its company. They can take valuable experience with them, causing their employer to retrain at a cost that can be difficult to fully appreciate.

See, unions have a way of making sure employees dont stand out, earn exceptional experience or acquire exceptional skill. They punish success generally and reward those employees who hover right around satisfactory.

In that world what Greg says about 'protection' is absolutely right. Reliance on unions has created a need for unions. So long as we want to keep rewarding the lowest common denominator for being barely useful.

I found in my varied work history that just showing up at a union shop surprises and impresses the owners/managers. How sad is that?

"Wow, you're here! On time!! Sober!!! I'd love to pay you more but if I paid you more the union demands I pay everyone more. Sorry."

Unions are great for low achievers, mental deficients and drug addicts.

[notdancingqueen]

Originally Posted by GregW

A UNION is the only way workers can expect fair and unforced dealings with any employer. Simply put the single worker can be economically devastated by the decision of a company while a company cannot be harmed by the decision of a worker. The company has the power and the worker does not. Unions level the playing field.

[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

Oh my. The ONLY way? I disagree. There are times and places for unions, I'll give you that. They did a lot for the health and safety of a lot of workers. However, GM and the like "deserve" to go belly up for all the reasons listed above. *Including* the gold-plated retirement benefits those retirees have. Shame on the UAW for not being (a bigger) part of the solution.

The employees with jobs tied to the Big-3, though -- the dealers, the suppliers and vendors, etc. -- THEY do not deserve to lose their jobs...and many of them would if the Big-3 go under. Not all would, but a bunch.

I read a statistic somewhere that saiud 1 in 10 manufacturing jobs is tied to the auto industry. Not sure how true that is -- seems high to me -- but that's an awful lot of people to put at risk "just" because the Big 3 are nonresponsive to the markets.

I wish there was a way to let them sink without punishing lots of others with shrapnel.

Jackie

[notdancingqueen]

Originally Posted by rmcewan

The 09 is very nice looking, but I'm quite disappointed with Honda actually. I liked the pilot on price-point and capacity (it is one of very few vehicles that will easily take three carseats on the 2nd row. However - MPG is slight worse this year mostly due to the increased weight of the new body - and the MSRP seems to have risen by several thousand vs earlier models. If they come down next year, then it'll be an option over the dreaded minivan!

Buy a lightly-used one in a late-year model.