Workforce Housing law (Freedom: credit card, home, tax)

[MtnFlyer]

Originally Posted by CometVoyager

It is so sad and disturbing to see how so many have this "Entitlement Mindset" Me Me ME!
What ever happened to good old fashioned Yankee Ingenuity and the Hard Work Ethic!

Greg it is obvious by all your posts that you "already live there." Should you ever aspire to be and do more, and actually achieve something beyond the norm with you life and earn real wealth because of your own efforts, it'd be interesting to see how you'd feel about being told that you have to support the lazy. It's one thing to do it out of the goodness of your heart. I give by most standards a LOT, but it's my choice. Your answer to most everything seems to be tax the wealthy and let them pay your way.

Here's a sobering thought. You are exactly where you are supposed to be in life. It all comes down to choices.

[notdancingqueen]

Originally Posted by MtnFlyer

Should you ever aspire to be and do more, and actually achieve something beyond the norm with you life and earn real wealth because of your own efforts, it'd be interesting to see how you'd feel about being told that you have to support the lazy. [/b]

WTF?? Not everyone earning less than Warren Buffett is lazy.

MtnFlyer, I take your point about the philospohical point you are making re: choosing to support on your own vs. being required to support through taxes -- but that point can be made without implicit (or explicit, depending on your read) insults. I'd say you have no idea what Greg has achieved in his life -- and I suspect for damned sure he's not "lazy" just because he's not rich.

Play nice.

YMMV, NDQ

[MtnFlyer]

Queen I was FAR from being rich when I developed the attitude that I wasn't "owed" anything, nor was I "entitled" to anything. I never felt that anyone who made more money should have to contribute to my housing desires or anything else. In part it was very easy for me to have this attitude because from a very early age, I knew I'd achieve what I wanted by my own efforts. You see the same wind blows on all boats. It's not the direction of the wind that allows you to win the race, it's the set of your sail. In fact I'd venture to say that there is no reason you or anyone else in this conversation couldn't achieve what I have. It's simply a matter of chioces.

[notdancingqueen]

Originally Posted by MtnFlyer

Queen I was FAR from being rich when I developed the attitude that I wasn't "owed" anything, nor was I "entitled" to anything. I never felt that anyone who made more money should have to contribute to my housing desires or anything else. In part it was very easy for me to have this attitude because from a very early age, I knew I'd achieve what I wanted by my own efforts. You see the same wind blows on all boats. It's not the direction of the wind that allows you to win the race, it's the set of your sail. In fact I'd venture to say that there is no reason you or anyone else in this conversation couldn't achieve what I have. It's simply a matter of chioces.

I'll venture to say that you have no idea what I have or haven't achieved in my life. And not knowing what you have achieved in yours, I honestly have no idea if I'd WANT to achieve what you have. I make plenty of money to meet my needs and have a loving family and wonderful friends. My choices may not have allowed me to earn as much money as I am capable of but I have time for what is important to me; to me, that trade-off is worth it. I never said anyone owes me anything. I work hard for what I have. I am happy and healthy and I make the world a better place through my job and my activities. That's plenty for me.

And given all that, I still believe that for certain things like health care and education, yes, there is a basic level to which all people should have access regardless of ability to pay. FWIW, I do not put fancy housing in that category.

My point was that you can well make your very valid point without insinuating that Greg or anyone else is lazy or a freeloader just because they have less monetary wealth than you do.

NDQ.

[MtnFlyer]

Originally Posted by notdancingqueen

I make plenty of money to meet my needs and have a loving family and wonderful friends. My choices may not have allowed me to earn as much money as I am capable of but I have time for what is important to me; to me, that trade-off is worth it. I never said anyone owes me anything. I work hard for what I have. I am happy and healthy and I make the world a better place through my job and my activities. That's plenty for me.

It sounds like you and I aren't that far apart. I personally only work a few hours a day now opting to spend more quality time with family. I could most certainly earn more if I chose to put in the effort, but like you I place more value on quality of my children's lives and spending time at home. Where Greg and I differ is with this sense of entitlement that Comet pointed out. There is a simple concept that is taught in leadership seminars of "What gets rewarded gets repeated." I don't know if you've ever lived in a state where zoning and state actions reward those who take the entitlement mindset, but as time progresses and the laws solidify the idea, it's not pretty. What's worse is that you meet so many people who are capable of achieving such great things with their lives, but choose not to. Years ago we had an employee who was a single mother working part time. We offered to pay her way through school but in doing so she was going to lose her government check she was getting so she turned us down.

I suppose you just can't understand until you've seen it change and happen first hand. Queen I'm guessing based on some things I've seen that you've written that you're probably familiar with the late great Earl Nightingale. He wrote something once that always stuck with me that I think applies here. He was talking about a situation very similar to this, and he said that the human race was becoming fixed, not to keep the strong from winning, but to keep the weak from losing.

Everyone is entitled to choose their own path, but they're not entitled to anything.

[lisa g]

MtnFlyer I agree with you 100% - I also contribute charitably but prefer to choose who the recipient of my gift is. It feels better spiritually to give in a genuinely compassionate fashion - the alternative - mandated gifts in taxes paid disconnects people from genuine compassion and spirituality is lost.

Notdancingqueen, I don't think MtnFlyer was attacking Greg, as much as he was saying that as long as Greg is able bodied he and people like him have had the opportunity to live in a country which offers unlimited opportunity and that they should take full responsibility for their current condition, as they have created it.

None of us here have assumed anyone else's status or position in life - Greg is the one who said 'I already live there'. So no need for the defensiveness.

What we value in life is very individual and I guess some of us consider it personal - but if you value my hard earned money it is no longer a personal topic.

[GregW]

Notadacingqueen. Thank you for your comments. MF does not have any idea what my financial standing or professional status happen to be and I am not about to tell him. Considering where I started I am doing quite well. For what it is worth I could live in a far more expensive and pretentious housing but prefer to not to waste my money. If I don’t need it, I don’t buy it. Thus I live in less expensive “workforce” housing.

MF seems to think that opportunity is equally available to everyone. That is one of the major conservative myths. Opportunity is very carefully rationed in this country. The offspring of the well to do have far wider career choices and opportunities associated with who they grew up with than the kids of the ‘worker’ class or the poor. Equal opportunity my ass.

His example of paying for the education of a single mom is illustrative. Would his company have payed her enough to keep living as a student and also paid for her health care and her child’s? What makes him think that possibly offering more might not have changed her mind and resulted in a very loyal employee? Did they even think about it? The woman was not being lazy she was making certain she could take care of her kid. That is the responsible thing to do. I mean could she have actually counted on company loyalty? I doubt it. BTW I am fairly certain the kid’s father wasn’t providing a dime.

As far as workforce housing is concerned it is good economics for businesses to have a nearby place for their employees because then the business can pay less for the same workforce. This also applies to town governments. My town discouraged workforce housing because they believed the “workforce” tended to have more kids than the taxes on their less expensive housing would pay for educating. Experience has shown that the economic insecurity of the lower paid workforce results is fewer children and most of the kids belong to much better off families. Even though these families live in more expensive housing their kids suck up more education costs than the taxes collect. It is left to the folks with out children, rich or poor, to make up the difference.

[MtnFlyer]

Originally Posted by GregW

Opportunity is very carefully rationed in this country. The offspring of the well to do have far wider career choices and opportunities associated with who they grew up with than the kids of the ‘worker’ class or the poor. Equal opportunity my ass.

That's exactly the response I'd expect from you Greg.

[GregW]

It just happens to be an accurate description of the situation. Probably the most egregious example is the legacy admission (along with gentleman's C) policy at the Ivy League and other high level universities. This policy is designed to provide greater opportunity for the privileged kids even though much more qualified students are available from the pool of "lesser" applicants.

[MtnFlyer]

Originally Posted by GregW

It just happens to be an accurate description of the situation. Probably the most egregious example is the legacy admission (along with gentleman's C) policy at the Ivy League and other high level universities. This policy is designed to provide greater opportunity for the privileged kids even though much more qualified students are available from the pool of "lesser" applicants.

Greg I'm not going to say that children of wealthy parents don't have more opportinities laid before them than other people, but I also have no problem with that. For me it was probably one of the biggest driving forces in my life to become a success because I wanted better opportunites for my children. The point is that you can't let that mentality hold you back. I certainly didn't have anything laid before me like these kids of privilege you've referenced. In fact my parents had no savings and retired on Social Security. Fortunately for them by then I was in a positon to be able to help. Along the way I made it, lost it, and made it back.

You're right Greg in that I don't know you, but based on years of dealing with people I do get the distinct feeling that you're selling yourself short. If that's not the case then I apologize, but based on your writings you're apparently very bright and articulate and truth be told I'm guessing that I believe you're capable of accomplishing more than you do. If that's not the case, then again I apologize, but if you have kids I hope you can see your way clear to helping them believe they can achieve whatever they set their minds to. It may be that you feel like that would be misleading them, but I hope not.

I keep saying it's all about choices, and I can say that because I made so many poor ones along the way.