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The issue is parents...not teachers. All of a sudden "school" has become a babysitting service and parents are there not to push their students (its not their kids fault) but to hound the teachers (they are being unfair for giving a kid who does crappy work a C).
I taught a college seminar and was seriously contacted 2-3 times a week by students parents because they had an issue with something or thought I was being too hard on their child. It was my first/last seminar I taught because I seriously did not account for PARENTS to be contacting me...office hours/student help- sure, of course...but parents? Unreal. Seriously...they went to my "boss" because I failed their kid (who only came 4 times out of 13 classes)...one of them.
While I agree completely that teacher's unions have become too powerful a force and do harm teachers; I also think that in order to eliminate them schools need to provide more protection for teachers from parental lawsuits & personal attacks. Yes- someone I know was sued for "slander" because they gave a child a C and the parents felt it damaged their ability to go to college and should be changed...the argument was how much it hurt the child even though the child didn't keep up work wise...
Likewise- I know 7 teachers (2 retired)...none of them have ever worked less than 50 hours a week that I know of...and the highest paid (30 years of experience w/retired) made ~$75k/year. Mind you they all work/worked at very well respected school districts where this type of effort was the norm. I actually wanted to get together with a buddy of mine and his wife this weekend...but she's working all weekend so they can't come up.
Again...not defending the bad ones (who do exist)...but I think blanket statements are an issue here and a lot more blame needs to go the other direction (parents) & government regulations...
PS: I'm not disagreeing with any of you...but I think there are a lot more pressing issues that need attention first...
No you make a very good point. Parents are mostly to blame and you're also right about school basically being a daycare.
IMO the public education system is broken. It seems it's become an endless money pit, all we hear about is there is never enough funding, and the end product seems to get worse every year. Again not completely the fault of the teachers. I was wrong for making it out to be completely the teachers fault. However you have to admit they have a pretty cushy gig and get paid pretty damn well to do it.
No you make a very good point. Parents are mostly to blame and you're also right about school basically being a daycare.
IMO the public education system is broken. It seems it's become an endless money pit, all we hear about is there is never enough funding, and the end product seems to get worse every year. Again not completely the fault of the teachers. I was wrong for making it out to be completely the teachers fault. However you have to admit they have a pretty cushy gig and get paid pretty damn well to do it.
I didn't know it at the time, but the same change was very evident as I finished up my Boy-Scouting years. In my younger years the general process was this: Bunch of new scouts join troop and there parents follow in the form of assistant scoutmasters. Even if the parents couldn't make that commitment they would participate in more "behind the scenes" planning and fundraising and whatnot. Scouting was a FAMILY activity to a large extent (everyone knew who everyones parents were- because they were involved in a positive way).
By the time I got my Eagle the newest group of new scouts was "different"...multiple scouts would get driven by one parent...and there were less assitant scoutmasters. These kids wouldn't have the memories I did where my friends and I learned about nature from my Dad; or we learned about kayaking from my friends Dad...it made/makes me sad.
I agree with you that things are flawed; education should be a partnership between parents-teachers-students...not a war. Likewise dollars should be allocated where they matter- can't hire math/science teachers because of competition from private industry? Then step up to market demands... Need more books? Maybe there isn't a need for printable white boards...likewise some mandated "standard" from the fed doesn't work for the kid whose behind in reading...he needs something different.
In turn teachers have been getting burned out/unmotivated. One retiree told me "teaching wasn't fun anymore so I left"...all because of standardized testing/curriculums in there case- there was no-more time to learn about that cool historic building in town during history class that the bus passed everyday. Just the same thing as everyone else...none of it was "special" or "exciting". How good can a teacher really be with an average length of experience of only 5 years? Good enough to know learning dissabilities so well as to realize how to teach a kid with severe issues how to compensate so well (and show parents how to reinforce) so that he goes on to go to med school and become a world-class neurosurgeon (one retire of 30 year's story)...I doubt it; thats not in the standardized test curriculum.
I'm running for some public office next year...this crap has got to change.
Sorry for my long rants...I believe the future lies in education to a ridiculous degree. That education doesn't have to be college, it can be an apprenticeship or other valuable training...but it can't end because of lazy parents.
Likewise- I know 7 teachers (2 retired)...none of them have ever worked less than 50 hours a week that I know of...and the highest paid (30 years of experience w/retired) made ~$75k/year. Mind you they all work/worked at very well respected school districts where this type of effort was the norm. I actually wanted to get together with a buddy of mine and his wife this weekend...but she's working all weekend so they can't come up.
Public school K - 12 teachers that worked 50 hours a week? Did they work the same 50 hours a week for the 16 weeks a year there was no school?
The #1 state for high school graduation is Wisconsin at 87.5%.
Milwaukee, WI's largest city, has the longest and broadest school voucher program in the US.
Coincidence?
"The city of Milwaukee, Wisconsin led the way in 1990 and now has nearly 15,000 students using vouchers. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the first time in Milwaukee that more than $100 million will be paid in vouchers.[39] Twenty-six percent of Milwaukee students will receive public funding to attend schools outside the traditional Milwaukee Public School system." School voucher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Public school K - 12 teachers that worked 50 hours a week? Did they work the same 50 hours a week for the 16 weeks a year there was no school?
I just called my friend's wife to ask her for her case specifically:
She has 3 weeks of training over the summer (one extra at the end of the year, 2 extra at the beginning) and her salary of under $60k includes her supplement for teaching 4 weeks of summer school and an after-school tutoring program (only a few hours a week).
She has a BS double major in Math & Chemistry and MS in Elementary Education. She also is required by her district to take a number of continueing education credits every so many years.
Her school district is in the top 3 in her state...
The #1 state for high school graduation is Wisconsin at 87.5%.
Milwaukee, WI's largest city, has the longest and broadest school voucher program in the US.
Coincidence?
"The city of Milwaukee, Wisconsin led the way in 1990 and now has nearly 15,000 students using vouchers. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the first time in Milwaukee that more than $100 million will be paid in vouchers.[39] Twenty-six percent of Milwaukee students will receive public funding to attend schools outside the traditional Milwaukee Public School system." School voucher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wow the most successful system has 26% of it's students going to private schools.... I am so surprised. I would also bet the cost per student at those private schools is less than what most public schools in the country spend per student but yet the end product at the private schools is far superior than the public schools that spend more per kid.
Milwaukee spends ~$6700/student on vouchers (average voucher assuming 15,000 students).
Hollis NH spends $5,862 (and has some of the best schools in the state & the townspeople are very involved in local government)
US average is $6,058
My guess is public/private doesn't matter so much as resident/parental positive involvement.
Milwaukee spends ~$6700/student on vouchers (average voucher assuming 15,000 students).
Hollis NH spends $5,862 (and has some of the best schools in the state & the townspeople are very involved in local government)
US average is $6,058
My guess is public/private doesn't matter so much as resident/parental positive involvement.
A voucher program should be limited to the same $/student that is spent in the public schools. The important aspect is parental choice and the competition for students that would increase the quality of the education....
That said...can't good public schools also drive parental choice? For example- how many times are Hollis/Amherst/Bedford suggested on here for their excellent schools? People know that (school board, voters) and really do take keeping the schools in top notch shape to heart...they ARE a priority and are closely managed. As a result people desire to move to Hollis for the better schools...driving the cycle. Heck, we don't even have kids, but we knew good education systems drove more desireable areas...so here we are (and active to make sure it stays that way).
Again...the above only works in places where people actually care; but so would using vouchers to drive incentive...I think vouchers are a better choice for areas where the population has less options for mobility (lower income areas). That said...again if the parents don't care- the KID still gets the short end of the stick regardless. Regardless of school quality...I have no idea how to solve the low parent quality issue...
It seemed low actually- I used this site for my information:
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed
What I really should do is look at the town budget...these websites seem to differ from each other too much. Likewise I wonder how accurately the Hollis/Brookline breakout is getting calculated (they don't share elementary schools).
Last edited by Yac; 04-29-2009 at 03:26 AM..
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