How do NH residents feel about supporting public education? (Londonderry: sales, 2011)

[MovedfromFL]

Hi, my husband and I are both teachers in Georgia. (we moved up from FL in 2006)

We are considering a move to either New Hampshire, Vermont, or Maine when the time comes that we can sell our house here and find teaching jobs up there.

It has become pretty clear that FL and GA do not place much value on education. For the sake of my two boys, ages 3 and 1, I don't like what I see down here. Voters don't care about anything other than low taxes. No one cares if school funding is cut to the bone (of course, they will cut things at the classroom level first and the bureaucrats will never have to give up anything) For example, in my county, they fired 100 teachers, gave us a 2.8% pay cut, and now the governor of GA is mandating that we take 3 unpaid furlough days this year (& most likely we will get another 3-8 furlough days after Jan. 1) In addition, the state just cut another 3% of the education budget. The cuts over the last few years are staggering and apply to all levels from kindergarten to colleges.

So my question is: How is the outlook in NH for public education? Do you see the same "starve the beast" type of voter outlook? Do voters value education or do they want schools to operate on the cheap?

Where we used to live in FL, I know of at least 2 counties that have just implemented an emergency tax increase to pay for education. The state legislature cut education funding drastically down there as well, but they also gave county school boards the option to impose a special tax for 2 years (costing the average homeowner about $30 a year). After the two year period, the tax can be extended but only by voter approval.

I know the state budgets are in shambles all over the country & will get worse before they get better, but I feel that such drastic cuts to education are not in our best interests for the long term.

[BF66389]

New Hampshire's view on everything seems to vary heavily from town to town. Overall the state has a fairly small state government and each town (through property taxes) largely funds their own education system. Some towns have a highly valued/well run public education system; and some do not. One rule of thumb is that you generally don't have great schools without higher taxes...but higher taxes don't always mean great schools either.

The town we chose, Hollis, has an excellent school district (shared with Brookline) and higher taxes to pay for it (along with the excellent police/fire department). The residents have seen a real return-on-investment (Hollis is considered very desirable) and in general the local government is efficiently run...as a result getting needed funding isn't really a problem for the schools. That is one example... Other towns may approve tax rate hikes...but be poorly managed/have mediocre schools; whereas yet others may focus on keeping taxes low and not on improving their education system.

In short- NH is not like many areas where the schools are similar state-wide or county-wide; you need to look at each town individually- there is no accurate generalization that can be made.

[MovedfromFL]

Thanks for the info. I have noticed that property taxes vary from place to place. Some places are getting up there with NJ property tax levels. But I guess you save from not having a state income tax and a sales tax.

I read somewhere on a City Data forum that NH is "Nascar" while Vermont is "nature". I think I would like to get away from the Nascar element for awhile (had my fill here in Georgia, LOL) I actually like Nascar, but am looking for a little more progressive way of life than what GA has to offer. Someone said Vermont schools are better and that Vermont has more parks because they levy the taxes to pay for them. ???

I wonder how a "not so great" NH school compares to one that we think of as average or above here in GA or FL. Maybe NH's idea of not so great is our idea of good? (my husband landed at a "bad" school here his first year and had to deal with kids smearing feces on the bathroom walls. Luckily, he was able to find a better job the next year closer to our house)

I did a quick search for property in Hollis and I don't think we can afford that at all on 2 teacher salaries. Plus we want to be a little further from Boston.

[BF66389]

Haha...NH is not NASCAR; not sure where they came from. NH is about as similar to the South/Southest as a shoe horn is to an apple. While there may be a NASCAR track (there are in many states), its not the same...at...all. (I went to college in Southwest VA...)

Vermont is very pretty, but as far as I know its generally regarded as a state with not too many jobs, etc. Don't get me wrong- I love it there, but economically NH is in a far better position.

Also, as for comparing NJ tax levels to NH- I lived there for 21 years. It's not a fair comparison- you don't really get nickel-and-dimed here like you do in NJ. Likewise while the rate may be comparable, the assessed values are not- so the cost to you- is lower. I think one reason for the lower property costs in NH isn't its distance from anything so much as the fact that many folks here still consider debt to be bad...and subsequently won't pay 800k for a mediocre house.

I would also say that NH's "ok" is your "good"...a friend of mine was let-go as a teacher in NC (she's from PA originally) because she (as an english teacher in a supposedly good district) enforced using real words (Sit, instead of Set; for example).

Some neat info I think is interesting (these may be slightly dated, but they are still close at least, I just haven't looked):
NH is the safest state in the country
NH has the 2nd lowest overall tax burden in the country
NH has the 5th highest per-capita income in the country
NH has one of the lowest poverty rates in the country

[MovedfromFL]

Originally Posted by BF66389

Haha...NH is not NASCAR; not sure where they came from. NH is about as similar to the South/Southest as a shoe horn is to an apple. While there may be a NASCAR track (there are in many states), its not the same...at...all. (I went to college in Southwest VA...)

Vermont is very pretty, but as far as I know its generally regarded as a state with not too many jobs, etc. Don't get me wrong- I love it there, but economically NH is in a far better position.

Also, as for comparing NJ tax levels to NH- I lived there for 21 years. It's not a fair comparison- you don't really get nickel-and-dimed here like you do in NJ. Likewise while the rate may be comparable, the assessed values are not- so the cost to you- is lower. I think one reason for the lower property costs in NH isn't its distance from anything so much as the fact that many folks here still consider debt to be bad...and subsequently won't pay 800k for a mediocre house.

I would also say that NH's "ok" is your "good"...a friend of mine was let-go as a teacher in NC (she's from PA originally) because she (as an english teacher in a supposedly good district) enforced using real words (Sit, instead of Set; for example).

Some neat info I think is interesting (these may be slightly dated, but they are still close at least, I just haven't looked):
NH is the safest state in the country
NH has the 2nd lowest overall tax burden in the country
NH has the 5th highest per-capita income in the country
NH has one of the lowest poverty rates in the country

That paints a pretty nice picture of NH. We are planning a trip up next summer, and of course one during the winter also. I doubt we could make the move before summer 2011 but who knows with the way things are today. My sister-in-law is a teacher who lives in PA but works in NJ, so I know things are vastly different for teachers up that way. (unionized, actually have rights, etc) Even FL was better than the way things are here in my opinion. I worked at a pretty good school down there, but things are going downhill fast. Heck, even here in our medium sized GA town my husband had to take 2 hours of "gang recognition" training when he started work as a new teacher. We have a nice assortment of gangs for the youth. (mostly Mexican) All of this happened in the last 3-4 years. At least I feel safe in and around my home, which I did not in Orlando, but now we are looking for the next and final step.

[lisa g]

I have only read the original post but will say that I do not believe excessive funding is the path to a 'quality ublic education'. Many of my friends are teachers (who also believe that throwing money at public education does not solve the problem), some of which have seen hrs cut due to furloughs, and I myself have volunteered a lot in public schools -Education is the biggest priority in my house, but already taking up the slack of a number of public ed. systems we have been part of independently, I vote against public ed. funding consistently. Private education is the best option if you can find a private school which is the right fit. Biting my tongue about teacher's unions....

[WannaComeHome]

As BF said: the quality of the schools (and therefore the attitude towards education) is going to vary by town. Have you checked websites like GreatSchools.com or SchoolMatters.com? Granted they are rating things based on test scores which you know don't tell the whole story.

You asked how a lower quality school would compare.. Hollis, Amherst and Londonderry have probably the 3 top school systems in the state. New Ipswich/Greenville has about a C average. But.. in spite of that the middle school just won the top award (sponsored by McDonalds) for excellence in student/teachers/etc. The high school has 2 award-winning programs in auto repair and house building. I have a friend with a 9yr old son and she seems perfectly happy with his education. A lot of it, as you know, depends on the home atmosphere. Now NI/Greenville doesn't put a lot of money into the schools, which has become a problem at the moment (their two elementary schools are locked out! and they have to build something new). So sometimes you just run up against budget problems. So even an 'average' school can still be a good school.

Hope this helps, or at least makes sense

[Annabelle]

Maybe you have already accessed this info, but here is a link that I think will be of interest to you. Lots of NH DOE data.

NH Department of Education - Data and Reports

[NH2008]

As BF66389 says, it very much depends on the town. Some towns have lots of well-educated young families who place a high priority on education - this is usually linked with higher property taxes as well as lots of parents volunteering in schools, high standards for administrators, etc. Some towns have a high proportion of less educated parents and their schools tend not to do as well. Other towns have a higher percentage of retired people or summer residents who may not be as invested in the school system since they aren't using it. Towns are certainly cutting budgets - at one school near where I live, teachers voted to deny themselves the raise they had been promised in order to prevent layoffs, and at another some lunch ladies were laid off. This doesn't indicate a lack of respect for education, it's simply economic reality that everything costs money and we can't have it all.

[Dick_Buttkiss]

Originally Posted by lisa g

I have only read the original post but will say that I do not believe excessive funding is the path to a 'quality ublic education'. Many of my friends are teachers (who also believe that throwing money at public education does not solve the problem), some of which have seen hrs cut due to furloughs, and I myself have volunteered a lot in public schools -Education is the biggest priority in my house, but already taking up the slack of a number of public ed. systems we have been part of independently, I vote against public ed. funding consistently. Private education is the best option if you can find a private school which is the right fit. Biting my tongue about teacher's unions....

I think we can all agree that throwing money at education will not lead to greater student achievement. However, when your state leadership makes severe cuts to education funding at the state level, and then your local counties also make severe cuts, eventually the quality of education will suffer. How many kids can we pack into a class? How much money in pay cuts can teachers be expected to accept with a smile? (while county officials continue to spend like there is no tomorrow on useless office functions, making jobs for their friends and relatives, and traveling all over the place for no reason.

My point is rather than blanket voting against funding, we should use the power of the ballot and vote in leadership that will spend money where it belongs - in the classroom.

As far as teacher unions, there are none in the South USA. Yes, I see how some unions are just plain greedy and totally out of touch with the real world. (I worked for many years in corporate positions and also have an MBA) My sister in law tells me how the unions in PA and NJ are always pushing for more and more, even as regular folks are suffering job losses, etc. When teachers have a much better deal than the average wage & benefits in town, but are always crying publically about how bad they have it, you will have problems.

Here in GA, we have no "tenure", no rules, no nothing. Districts can do whatever they want. My former co-workers in FL haven't had a raise since before I left in 2006. A demoralizing work environment can lead to high turnover and burnout, which leads to inexperienced teachers in the classroom and more recruiting and training costs to the district. I know a few really poor teachers (more in GA than in FL) but I also know a great many who are great at what they do. This is the same with any profession, not just teaching.