Murder in Mont Vernon (Milford, Orange: crime rates, schools, price)

[Chartrand]

Alright, in all seriousness. I apologize for those I trolled during my bout of severe sarcasm. It happens.

Allow this amateur psychologist to strap on his own know-it-all cap and give his limited view of the situation. Feel free to not take me seriously as I rarely take myself seriously, but I also believe my opinion on the matter to be as accurate as anyone could ever hope to make....or at least for a 24-year-old without much of a worldly view.

Bear in mind I am going to be tossing all sorts of crap out that is mostly opinion or vaguely based on something semi-factual that I may have heard a dozen years ago. Feel free to call me out on it.

<ahem>

Humans are complicated animals, and the human brain is a wonderful but complicated piece of machinery that we still really don't know all that much about. The history of violence and savagery in our species stretches back as long as our history of pretty much everything else.

I would tend to attribute first and foremost the creation of maniacs like these to nothing more than bad wiring. Not a very pretty, satisfying or scientific opinion, I know. I think that some people are innately predisposed toward violent acts, and that no amount of positive influence is going to change that for some.

I do believe that parenting is a factor, but even good parents have turned out bad apples. I don't know what type of parenting these kids received, maybe/probably it was inadequate, but I wouldn't automatically chalk it up to horrible parents without trying to get a better grasp on what went on. I think people can be set on the right path when they otherwise would have strayed, but for some this task might be near-impossible.

I believe, and this is coming from someone who is not religious at all, that with fewer people having a healthy fear of God and the threat of an eternity spent in hell for committing atrocious acts, things like this may happen more frequently. Of course, we've also seen the downside of religion when it comes to matters of violence as well, but that's another debate.

I believe that constant exposure to media that features or promotes violence could have a marginal effect on the easily-influenced. Does it compare to parenting or, primarily in my view, how they're wired? Not all that much in my humble opinion.

I also believe that we're a blaming society, and if we can't assign blame to something that is easily identified that we become very uncomfortable and feel helpless. You can't change how someone is wired, and proof of it would be a little harder to pursue. You CAN do your best to try to shelter and censor and demonize, and if that makes you feel better then that's understandable and very human.

In my own experience, I know many people who watch Saw and play Grand Theft Auto and listen to Gangsta Rap. They're also Marines (and other military), account executives, firefighters, and youth baseball coaches (the horror!), among other things. Normal people are far as I could tell. Uncorrupted and trustworthy.


"Too Long, Didn't Read" Cliff's Notes version: Humans are predisposed toward violence, with some innately more savage than others. Many things may be to blame, but primarily "wiring" in my unscientific opinion.

[Dwatted Wabbit]

Originally Posted by BF66389

Very much so.

I also agree with you that music, movies, games, etc...are nothing more than individual pieces of a persons activities that can help provide clues/warning signs- but none of which are a reason themselves. As much as we would like to find a reason...there is evil in the world, evil that acts without reason.

IMO the games provide a certain immunity to or encouragement toward violence in the participating addict. Game addict.

They are desensitized to others, often encouraged to inflict pain. See "Clockwork Orange" for more details.
The pain isn't real, there are no consequences, they can do it again and again until it's fun to hurt.

There is much wrong in society. "Funniest Home Videos" is IMO a terrible show. Almost all the "funnies" are showing someone else in pain, or at least embarassment. Sick sick.

We live in sick times.

[Chartrand]

Originally Posted by Dwatted Wabbit

IMO the games provide a certain immunity to or encouragement toward violence in the participating addict. Game addict.

I'm asking this in a non-accusatory, non-indignant tone, but do you play these games and watch these movies? Have you experienced these things or only watched?

I'll admit that people will see things differently, but when I see a violent game I don't see people dying or blood or gore, I just see pixels and sprites and bad Artificial Intelligence. A poor imitation of life and violence. There is still an immense disconnect, and a huge suspension of disbelief that's required to really get into these things. Same with "blood porn" movies like Saw or Hostel. It's all mediocre acting and special effects.

When I play a racing game there is no lasting punishment in crashing, but then when I narrowly miss being involved in an accident in real life, or even if I lose control on a slippery road, my heart starts beating incredibly quickly? Why is that, if my years of playing driving simulators would have caused me to build up an immunity to accidents? If "been there done that" applies to killing, would it not apply to driving?

It's because, like I said, there is a disconnection. Some people may have an easier time getting immersed but all that does is bring us back to my previous point...that we're all geared differently upstairs and exactly how much are the games and movies really a factor?

[BF66389]

Originally Posted by Dwatted Wabbit

IMO the games provide a certain immunity to or encouragement toward violence in the participating addict. Game addict.

They are desensitized to others, often encouraged to inflict pain. See "Clockwork Orange" for more details.
The pain isn't real, there are no consequences, they can do it again and again until it's fun to hurt.

There is much wrong in society. "Funniest Home Videos" is IMO a terrible show. Almost all the "funnies" are showing someone else in pain, or at least embarassment. Sick sick.

We live in sick times.

That's the thing though, like with any external stimulus there are millions of people who partake in it without ever doing anything horrible and are just as shocked by "real" violence as anyone who has never experienced the same external stimulus. I really don't think any true causation link can be established. Correlation- sure, but not causation. Take people in their 90s+, many of them felt Rock and Roll was "the work of the devil" and it made people more violent because of the rise in crime, drugs, etc. Well for some generations before them they felt the same way about "big band" music. Yet even going further back there was violence and war equally as gruesome.

I also think there are some other issues at play in our perceived increase in violence:
1) More things classified as a crime (beating your wife or servants or slaves used to be "fine").
2) Better ability to catch crime (can tell the difference between a heart attack and a poisoning...likewise an "accidental" death and a murder...or a runaway and an abduction).
3) Higher population density (many with criminal minds "back in the day" would escape from society because their mind would torment them...that's very hard now).
4) More exposure, a murder used to be heard about "in the town/county"...now its heard about around the world.

I would love to be able to assign a cause for an increase in violence that's something we could actually "do something about"; but I really don't think we can.

Oh, and I agree with you that the "Funniest Home Videos" show is garbage.

[Aptor hours]

I hope I am not to OT but humans have always been very blood thirsty and cold. When I visited Rome I was shocked by how cruel people were in ancient Rome and that was before TV and video games. I'm not sure the type of music they listened to though

[Peony321]

They wanted to kill. They are evil. Enough said.

[darylyh]

Seems to me that we hear (and say) -- often -- that something's gone wrong with today's youth; that if we only changed "X" or "Y", it would all be much better. Certainly I've written about stories in the past that skirted such thoughts, and the Mont Vernon murder is bringing the "youth are out of control" calls everywhere.

So. I came across this today. (Link) A couple of snippets:

Ephebiphobia--extreme fear of youth--is a full-blown media panic. [...]

In the real world, young people behave better than any generation in decades. Young assailants are not "ordinary" teens any more than serial killer David Berkowitz is an "ordinary Jew" or child-murderer Andrea Yates typifies newly murderous womanhood.

I found the article to be quite stabilizing, myself. It was written in 2002, but the author (associated with a number of juvenile justice groups) has been pumping out data non-stop along these lines. Full UCR data is here.

The upshot is that violent crime among youth is probably lower than one might think -- and in particular for homicide. (link)

Doesn't make the Mont Vernon crime any less horrific, but it helps put things into a bit better perspective -- or at least, it did for me.

[steveusaf]

Originally Posted by BF66389

For those of you who have or are contemplating firearms I wanted to post links to 2 places local where you can receive training, both are local and I've heard good things about the training offered by both as well. One offers the full gamut of courses from simple to very advanced and is also a firearms manufacturer. The other is a local pay-range with some qualified instructors.

Sig Sauer Academy: SIG SAUER Academy - personal protection and firearms training in Epping, NH

Manchester Firing Line: Manchester Firing Line Range, LLC. in Manchester, NH

The Manchester Firing Line is also somewhere where you can rent various firearms to try them out (they have a public pay-by-the-hour-to-shoot range). The only caution here is that while they have barriers between shooters for safety, it is open to the public...

I'm sure there will be other suggestions as well

For ladies: I know Sig Sauer offers "women only" classes, and I've been told that Tom Brown at Manchester Firing Line is an excellent instructor for women as well.

I never knew the Sig Sauer folks operated an academy in Epping. From perusing their web site, it looks like if they don't offer something, you don't need it. I will certainly be honing my skills there when I move back to the area. What an amazing course offering...

[BF66389]

Originally Posted by steveusaf

I never knew the Sig Sauer folks operated an academy in Epping. From perusing their web site, it looks like if they don't offer something, you don't need it. I will certainly be honing my skills there when I move back to the area. What an amazing course offering...

Oh yeah. I think your best bet (since they offer so many) is to call them and tell them what you want to learn and have them tell you what the best course progression for you would be/what is required for each class.

It's so close as well!

[looking4home]

You can remain in denial if you want, but music, film, etc. DOES without a doubt influence the impressionable and vulnerable, in this case teens. I'm glad someone brought up the film "A clockwork Orange" which was a very controversial film for its day, and also a very well-made one. It had an X rating, but nowadays the same film would only garner an R at best. In the film, the main character is brainwashed via music and images in an attempt to "rehabilitate" him. The Soviets and Hitler understood the power of film, and used it extensively to brainwash and desensitize.

It is more than an unfortunate coincidence that this murder and the ones in VA were committed by teens who listened to the same type of music - music that glorifies, condones, and even encourages violence. What would you say about music that encouraged racism and violence against minorities? what if those who listened to it went out and killed someone who was Asian or black? It would not only be first-degree murder but a hate crime to boot. And there are federal laws that prohibit hate speech, which is anything that exhorts people to violence. Just because this music doesn't target a particular group of people doesn't make it any less destructive or corosive to society.