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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salix229
Woodlynne is not a drain on Collingswood.
I don't know where the statistics quoted in this thread came from, they seem quite vague. Here are some that are easily verified online:
20-22% of Collingswood High School students are from Woodlynne. Woodlynne pays about $14,000 per student in tuition to the Collingswood School board, revenue that would be difficult to replace. All back tuition is currently paid, and regular payments are made by Woodlynne to the Colls Board of Ed.
As of 2009, Woodlynne's population was about 2800, vs Collingswood at about 14,000, making Woodlynne almost 1/3 the size of Collingswood. With a population of 56% minority and 43% white residents. Woodlynne has a diverse, culturally rich population versus Collingswood's relatively unintegrated population, about 84% white.
Let's take a look at this year's senior class. Woodlynne has two students ranked in the top 20 based on academic success; they and other Woodlynne students received scholarships and many awards at the Academic Awards and Performing Arts Awards presentations recently. Woodlynne seniors are attending colleges including Rowan University, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia, Rutgers University and Camden County College.
Of $80,000 in athletic scholarships, roughly 1/3 went to students from Woodlynne. A Woodlynne student lead the Collingswood High School basketball team to the South Jersey Group 2 title last year, our students participated in basreball and distinguished themselves in wrestling, and were represented in awards for scholar athletes and athletes playing on 3 or more sports teams.
The last figure I heard was that about 15% of the student body at Collingswood High School was from Woodlynne and this 15% accounted for 90% of the minority and 80% of the poverty level students. If you talk to folks in the district they will also tell you on the side that it's that same 15% who cause 90% of the disciplinary issues and are responsible for pulling down the average test scores. Of course, that is heresay and is probably a biased statement, but most likely not too far from the truth.
Woodlynne's entire percentage caused 90% of the discipline problems at Collingswood? Absolutely not. 90% of the minority and 80% of the "poverty level" students?" So what? Probably a biased statement? I would say defintely.
OK, you pointed out some plusses, but in your haste to point a finger & make insinuations, you missed quoting that Woodlynne residents are taking in Camden residents & sending them to Collingswood High. This has long been a problem in Pennsauken. Maybe the adults mean well, but the intentions of the adults are not always shared by the students involved.
Stop & think about it. It's a drain on Woodlynne as well as Collingswood.
Woodlynne is not a drain on Collingswood.
I don't know where the statistics quoted in this thread came from, they seem quite vague. Here are some that are easily verified online:
20-22% of Collingswood High School students are from Woodlynne. Woodlynne pays about $14,000 per student in tuition to the Collingswood School board, revenue that would be difficult to replace. All back tuition is currently paid, and regular payments are made by Woodlynne to the Colls Board of Ed.
As of 2009, Woodlynne's population was about 2800, vs Collingswood at about 14,000, making Woodlynne almost 1/3 the size of Collingswood. With a population of 56% minority and 43% white residents. Woodlynne has a diverse, culturally rich population versus Collingswood's relatively unintegrated population, about 84% white.
Let's take a look at this year's senior class. Woodlynne has two students ranked in the top 20 based on academic success; they and other Woodlynne students received scholarships and many awards at the Academic Awards and Performing Arts Awards presentations recently. Woodlynne seniors are attending colleges including Rowan University, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia, Rutgers University and Camden County College.
Of $80,000 in athletic scholarships, roughly 1/3 went to students from Woodlynne. A Woodlynne student lead the Collingswood High School basketball team to the South Jersey Group 2 title last year, our students participated in basreball and distinguished themselves in wrestling, and were represented in awards for scholar athletes and athletes playing on 3 or more sports teams.
The last figure I heard was that about 15% of the student body at Collingswood High School was from Woodlynne and this 15% accounted for 90% of the minority and 80% of the poverty level students. If you talk to folks in the district they will also tell you on the side that it's that same 15% who cause 90% of the disciplinary issues and are responsible for pulling down the average test scores. Of course, that is heresay and is probably a biased statement, but most likely not too far from the truth.
Woodlynne's entire percentage caused 90% of the discipline problems at Collingswood? Absolutely not. 90% of the minority and 80% of the "poverty level" students?" So what? Probably a biased statement? I would say defintely.
I'm not trying to insinuate anything. More or less, I'm just repeating the things told to me by people who live in the town and people who work in the district and surrounding districts. I never claimed statistical validation for anything I said, I was simply painting a picture, that ironically you proved that my hearsay information wasn't so far off base with your "actual" statistics. It also needs to be mentioned that you are using demographic information from either city data or wikipedia that is most likely from the 2000 census. Not to mention that your "proof" that Woodlynne isn't a drain is tied to vague references to a handful of obviously succesful students.
You also stated that Woodlynne is fully paid up and owe's nothing in arrears, well Woodlynne can thank the taxpayers of NJ who pay 70% of the town's budget and made it possible for Woodlynne to pay to pay over $500k in back tuition costs dating to 2005/6 that Woodlynne owed Collingswood as well as making it possible for them to continue to pay the tuition to Collingswood. The other issue that you didn't touch on is that Collingswood's district spends over $14k per student, but the agreement caps the amount that Woodlynne can be increased per year, with the remainder going to arrears following an adjustment period. For 2009/10 Woodlynne only paid $12,750 per pupil, which is almost $1,500 less than what Collingswood spends per pupil and doesn't account for special education requirements. The cycle continues and when the adjustment is made Woodlynne will once again owe Collingswood arrears money as it was a miracle that they were able to pull off paying up. So, outside of the other factors, Woodlynne remains a financial drain and that should be enough of a reason to cut them off.
I grew up in Collingswood, but I no longer live there and am simply an observer as I know a lot of people living there, including my parents. I would never state that all kids from Woodlynne are bad, in fact I had quite a few friends from Woodlynne in my time at Collingswood, a few of which who have gone on to be quite succesful. What is a fact is that Woodlynne is changing dramatically and not for the better. It's something telling when the people who grew up there, wouldn't move back to that town to raise their families if the housing was free.
Woodlynne and Collingswood are tied together in many ways from the school district to the police and fire departments. It's something telling when in light of the long historical relationship of these towns that Collingswood is desperately trying to get out of bed with Woodlynne, but at the same time is fearing the collapse that might happen if they did.
If we want to look at statistics, let's use the "greatschools" ratings to see some differences, rankings are 1-10 with 10 being the best and 5 is average:
Woodlynne PK-8 = 2
Oaklyn PK-5 = 7
Oaklyn 6-9 = 4
Collingswood Elementaries K-6 (5 total) = 2, 3, 4, 8, and 9. The last two are Zane North and Tatem, which are both Blue Ribbon certified and account for 40% of the students from the main areas of Collingswood.
Collingswood Middle School = 6 So the aggragate of all Collingswood students from the various elementaries attain a 6 which is above average and the Middle School is only attended by Collingswood students.
Collingswood High School = 4 Which is below average and is the only level where students from all 3 districts are involved. Given that the aggragate of all students from Collingswood are actually above average, I wonder who is weighing down the high school's performance, could it be Woodlynne that has the worst rated school district in the area, second only to Camden City?
We can also use DFG's to eliminate the "race" issue and simply focus on the socio-economic factor. Woodlynne is a "B" which is the second lowest DFG, while Collingswood and Oaklyn are both "DE" placing them solidly in the middle of the scale.
It seems like the amount of time the Collingswood BOE has spent on the Woodlynne tuition payment issue should be reason enough to change this arrangement. This subject has come up at most public BOE meetings over the last couple of years so I can only imagine the effort that the administration has put into this. Personally, I would much rather see time spent working on education not quibbling over contractual obligations.
I'm glad that you guys took the ball here. I learned alot about the town I chose to live in. The school situation is the hardest to change for a variety of reasons. Racial bias is obviously going to be contended if attempts to make Woodlyne reimburse monies. There isn't a politician alive to touch that issue.
I think the focus should be on the things that can be changed. For example, that someone pointed out why a guy who died 100 years ago controls the 2010 economy of the town. Have attempts been made to contact the Knight family and make a plea for change? The economy of the town is dying on the vine. Lets say that doesn't work either. Why do the business fathers of the town fail to see that established retail would support the restaurants? There are far too many SALE/RENT signs on Haddon avenue. I've heard that the rents are astronomical so owners of these ecelectic stores are moving to spots that can support them. I have voiced my opinion in the Retrospect and plan to attend a meeting. I'm even going to point them to this blog as the opinions seem overwhelming on what to do. A Trader Joe's? Cosi? Starbucks?, Restoration Hardware? ( I was hoping for an upscale Iron Hill Brewery but Maple Shade snatched up the first NJ location) There has to be better than matchbox car / fire extinguisher stores? Collingswood really does need to decide what it wants to be. The mish mosh of combing a dry down with limited business laws and trying become a "hip" extension of CC Philly is false advertiseing. We have no ratebales as it is and the taxes are very high. I hope for a change or we're off to Philly for our 10 year tax abatement.
PS: I heard the last hurdle of the DyDee factory in Westmont has been cleared and the project there can continue. If they go on as they planned, they will eclipse Collingswood quickly.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,670,113 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraysFerryB4
I'm glad that you guys took the ball here. I learned alot about the town I chose to live in. The school situation is the hardest to change for a variety of reasons. Racial bias is obviously going to be contended if attempts to make Woodlyne reimburse monies. There isn't a politician alive to touch that issue.
I think the focus should be on the things that can be changed. For example, that someone pointed out why a guy who died 100 years ago controls the 2010 economy of the town. Have attempts been made to contact the Knight family and make a plea for change? The economy of the town is dying on the vine. Lets say that doesn't work either. Why do the business fathers of the town fail to see that established retail would support the restaurants? There are far too many SALE/RENT signs on Haddon avenue. I've heard that the rents are astronomical so owners of these ecelectic stores are moving to spots that can support them. I have voiced my opinion in the Retrospect and plan to attend a meeting. I'm even going to point them to this blog as the opinions seem overwhelming on what to do. A Trader Joe's? Cosi? Starbucks?, Restoration Hardware? ( I was hoping for an upscale Iron Hill Brewery but Maple Shade snatched up the first NJ location) There has to be better than matchbox car / fire extinguisher stores? Collingswood really does need to decide what it wants to be. The mish mosh of combing a dry down with limited business laws and trying become a "hip" extension of CC Philly is false advertiseing. We have no ratebales as it is and the taxes are very high. I hope for a change or we're off to Philly for our 10 year tax abatement.
PS: I heard the last hurdle of the DyDee factory in Westmont has been cleared and the project there can continue. If they go on as they planned, they will eclipse Collingswood quickly.
Haddonfield is also a dry town, but they have the schools. The school situation is the easier problem to tackle. Breaking a will is long & always iffy as to the result. When they broke Stephen Girard's will in Philly, it took years.
If you have a site in Collingswood that you think would work for Trader Joe's go to the Trader Joe's website & suggest it. Bypass the town.
Gray's, Southbound is absolutely right that the key to Collingswood's future success is tied to the school district. Haddon Twp. is a perfect example of this. They have been toying with the downtown in Westmont along Haddon Ave. for 30+ years to no avail. Yet, Haddon Twp. enjoys higher property values and a more balanced budget with a much lower debt burden. This is tied directly to their school district which is the best in the area after Haddonfield.
Collingswood needs to find a fix for the Woodlynne issue on many levels and divest themselves of Woodlynne and it's issues entirely. Throwing money at the school doesn't work as Collingswood spends more money per pupil than many surrounding districts that have better school systems. It is just a plain fact that Collingswood is pulled down by Woodlynne. Eliminate the sending/receiving agreement (not an easy feat in any way shape or form) and I am willing to bet you will see the high school improve dramatically in short order. Good schools attract wealth. Wealth raises property values. Property values increase the towns ratables. Increased ratables means a healthier tax base to pull from.
The issue of dry town or not is rather moot. Sure it could bring increased business and revenue to Collingswood, but it does nothing to address the real issues. The unfortunate reality is that the town has built it's new reputation on a lot of borrowed money spent on pet projects that haven't always given the desired results (Lumberyard for one). It remains that Collingswood is a great place to visit, but not so great a place to live if you have kids who need to go to school.
In regards to real retail, it's a tough call. The easiest type of "real" retail to bring in are franchise type establishments, but most of these revolve around eating and the fear is that these chains will take business away from the local independents. They don't want Haddon Ave. to look like the mall food court. For instance, Starbuck's was looking to add a location in Collingswood, but they were rebuked as there was a fear that a Starbuck's would hurt the local cafe's, although now the main one (Tree House) has gone out of business.
In terms of real retail like a Trader Joe's, the issue is really where to park? Parking has long been the achilles heal of retail in Collingswood. The major retailers fear being inaccessible and would rather go plop themselves down in shopping plazas on 38 or 70 and call it a day, knowing that they will reach a much broader audience and have easier accessibility.
I'm not trying to be doom and gloom, but these are issues Collingswood has faced for a long time and has never been able to come to grips with. They've done a good job building a reputation and attracting interest, but they've done it by borrowing money. I believe the town is now $1.8 million in the hole this coming fiscal year, which is huge for such a small town and doesn't count their actual outstanding debt that they are servicing. I wish their were easy solutions, but they have been elusive to come by. If I lived there, I would be fearing the next 10 years as they will either make or break Collingswood.
I would love to see Collingswood become a mini Arlington, VA or Bethesda, MD. Its proximity and access to downtown Philly has to be the best of all suburban towns in the area. There should be some organized transit-oriented development with increased density around the PATCO stop. This would help bring in ratables and some more retail options.
I agree the high school needs to improve and the dry town status should be repealed as well but it seems like a very complicated issue. There has to be some way to work around that trust issue?
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,670,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerzBoy
I would love to see Collingswood become a mini Arlington, VA or Bethesda, MD. Its proximity and access to downtown Philly has to be the best of all suburban towns in the area. There should be some organized transit-oriented development with increased density around the PATCO stop. This would help bring in ratables and some more retail options.
I agree the high school needs to improve and the dry town status should be repealed as well but it seems like a very complicated issue. There has to be some way to work around that trust issue?
Breaking a will is serious business & not easy to do. I cited Stephen Girard's will, which took years to break.
Girard's Will is a classic in American law. Philanthropists like Williamson, Ellis, and Hershey used it as a model to create their endowments. The Will was controversial. It offended his family, the religious community, and later females and non-white minorities. Girard's first Will was written in 1787. Horace Binney, a famous attorney, prepared the second one in 1826. That Will was significantly revised in 1830 by William J. Duane. The final Will is dated February 16, 1830, but after Girard bought additional property and changed the location for his school, two codicils were published, one dated December 25, 1830, the other June 20, 1831. The last codicil was written just six months before Girard died on December 26, 1831. The Will was probated on December 31, 1831.
Shortly after Girard's death, The Pennsylvania Gazette published the Will's content. People were shocked at the estate's value and how Girard left nearly all of his seven million dollars to charitable causes. Girard designated the City of Philadelphia to administer the estate, and this act became a significant point that led to the Will's dismantling. In this century, the court ruled that no public institution, in this case the city, could enforce restrictions that were contrary to the Constitution's 14th amendment that guarantees equal rights to all citizens.
Trying to break a will that says that the town has to remain dry is not going to be easy. The court will look at it & say, what?, you people can't go to another town to buy your booze? It's going to break your arm to carry a bottle to a BYOB? Chances of breaking it are slim to none.
As I said, Haddonfield is a dry town & no one cares. People flock to it because of the schools. Because there's money in the town, shops line the business district.
Sadly, just saying why can't you just carry a bottle to a restaurant is not the solution. From the earliest times, pubs were places of congregation. I'm not talking nightclubs next to Nunzio's but just a destination after dinner. Besides having good schools, Haddon Twp also inserted bars right into residential neighborhoods with no apparent problems ( PJ Welihan's, Pour House, the Taproom) and these places are filled with a nice crowd every night. Like another poster, I've lived in Collingswood for 4 years and have not purchased anything (non food related) on the avenue. There is talk of a transit village with more retail (?) and more...gulp...condos? I just hesitate to think what they will put in there. In terms of established retail, it doesn't have to be food. Trendy stores like those in Chesnut Hill or Manyunk would work (Ann Taylor Loft, Pottery Barn, Blue Mercury, Gap). As for Trader Joe's, I've seen one nestled nicely in the little town of Media; small parking lot is included on the grounds? I was told that our mayor rebuked Trader Joe's (and Starbuck's) three years ago but I can not substantiate that.
Not having kids, I didn't know that the HS was such an issue. Being in education, I agree, it is the first thing that educated families look at when moving to a place. The only positive is that Collingswood is more affordable than Haddonfield but I agree, gentrified wealth is what we need. Hopefully something will change but the easiest one seems to be at least trying to bait better stores with some type of incentive.
Last edited by GraysFerryB4; 06-22-2010 at 06:32 AM..
Reason: syntax
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,670,113 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraysFerryB4
Sadly, just saying why can't you just carry a bottle to a restaurant is not the solution. From the earliest times, pubs were places of congregation. I'm not talking nightclubs next to Nunzio's but just a destination after dinner. Besides having good schools, Haddon Twp also inserted bars right into residential neighborhoods with no apparent problems ( PJ Welihan's, Pour House, the Taproom) and these places are filled with a nice crowd every night. Like another poster, I've lived in Collingswood for 4 years and have not purchased anything (non food related) on the avenue. There is talk of a transit village with more retail (?) and more...gulp...condos? I just hesitate to think what they will put in there. In terms of established retail, it doesn't have to be food. Trendy stores like those in Chesnut Hill or Manyunk would work (Ann Taylor Loft, Pottery Barn, Blue Mercury, Gap). As for Trader Joe's, I've seen one nestled nicely in the little town of Media; small parking lot is included on the grounds? I was told that our mayor rebuked Trader Joe's (and Starbuck's) three years ago but I can not substantiate that.
Not having kids, I didn't know that the HS was such an issue. Being in education, I agree, it is the first thing that educated families look at when moving to a place. The only positive is that Collingswood is more affordable than Haddonfield but I agree, gentrified wealth is what we need. Hopefully something will change but the easiest one seems to be at least trying to bait better stores with some type of incentive.
As I told you in other threads, I like Collingswood, but there has been the proximity to Camden as a minor issue for years (since Camden went down the tubes). It's been a very minor issue.
I used to go to Collingswood for many years, once a month, & would pay my mortgage & run into the RX pharmacy to pay utilities & buy odds & ends. (sometimes checking out antique shops, too) I paid off the mortgage early & RX left. I didn't have a need to go on a regular basis. The antique shops were nice & much more affordable than the shops in Haddonfield.
For lack of an alternative to Knights Park, the dry status has to stand, but there are ways to get around that. Can someone go to a coucil meeting & ask, in public, if Starbucks & Trader Joe's were rebuked? They are not fly-by-night or transient businesses & would be good anchors for mom & pop businesses. If that is true, then find someone to run against the incumbent on that issue.
The business issue can be fixed without lifting the dry status, but the school issue is a big deal that can be fixed easier than the dry status.
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