My Problem with Collingswood (apartment, rentals, houses)

[GraysFerryB4]

I plan to ask questions at the town meeting. I once asked to go to the business meeting but was told that since I did not own a businnes, I was not allowed to come. Personally if I owned a business I would love to hear the arguements of an in-town consumer but they did not agree.
A plus I saw on the horizon is that according to the ad in Main Street Realty's window, the next phase of the Lumberyard will offer 3 bedroom units; this was taken off the table 2 years ago and I think, limited its potential for family sales. If they price them right, we should see progress. I know that since Main Street Realty recently took over that they are very well aware of the pricing and needed adjustments. This, however, is not yet reflected on the Lumberyard website which is in serious need of an update.

[tom_567]

Long time reader, first time caller...

I'm a 27 yo single male who just bought my first place in Collingswood by myself 6 months ago. I agree with most of what was said.

The point about debt load on the town is scary. I fear that one of the previous posters was right that property taxes are going to keep pushing upwards to pay debt service as time goes on. For what I'm paying now, I probably will be packing my bags for Philly in a few years. Though, I work out in Cherry Hill/Mt. Laurel, so I need a car daily and a reliable place to park it, which is why I chose Collingswood to begin with.

I agree that Collingswood is a far cry from being a hip extension of Center City. There are a lot of niceties to the town, for sure, but the residents and events are more family-oriented, and back by me (near Cooper River Park), there is a combination of 40-and-50 something families, old people, 30-something families, and many others who aren't in the same life stage as me (or said with less political correctness - "hip").

I disagree that Collingswood doesn't know what it wants to be. What it wants to be and what it will be are two separate issues. Today, the single family housing stock in the town serves well for 30-something families with young kids who want a small town feel, access to CC/South Jersey, and need a suburban elementary school system. I don't think the town's housing needs have changed so much as the median income of the town and the resultant revival of downtown Haddon Ave have.

One key for downtown Haddon Ave going forward is getting nightlife built up and establishing a solid community for post-college and professional renters -- a place where young professionals who work in South Jersey want to live to avoid paying Philly wage tax. As someone who works in South Jersey, renting in NJ is the best deal in the area.

Families in Collingswood with tons of money have moved to Cherry Hill, Marlton, Mount Laurel, Moorestown, and I don't think you can build a lasting downtown off of fad-based restaurants that caters to this crowd (after all, Rittenhouse is a mere 15 min train ride away).

Empty-nesters and young professionals have disposable income that 40-something families getting choked on 2.5 kids and NJ property tax bills do not. Collingswood should focus on this fact and improving the downtown area in the absence of fixing the high school mess. In the absence of competing for corporate ratables that are in Chery Hill and Mount Laurel, I think this is really the town's best bet.

Regarding Lumberyard, my parents actually just bought one of those places. The unsold units in there are these giant 3 bedroom places, and there is no way they are going to sell.

Most of their neighbors are other near-empty nesters who still work in Center City, make enough to warrant a flat NJ property tax bill vs. Philly wage tax, and want to live near other empty nesters with cash to spend at restaurants, with new friends, etc.

The intended audience for these un-finished 3-bed Lumberyard units is families. As was pointed out, families will choose the available single family/twin/rowhouse stock which is available for 100,000's less.

One thing the Lumberyard association should consider is reconfiguring the 3 beds and turning them into upscale rentals. Having previously been in the rental market, there is NOTHING in South Jersey for young professionals or others with some cash to spend who are looking for a nice place to rent within walking distance to a PATCO station and a downtown district.

[kel6604]

I LOVE Collingswood! I'm not a resident but my close friend has lived there for 8 years (Collings Ave). I agree that something needs to be done with the retail aspect of Haddon Ave, the stores do seem to come and go and there are no go to, destination type stores. But as far as it being a dry town, I think that's a good thing! With bars come riff raff, more drunk driving, and all around rowdiness. Who wants that in their town? If the owners of Knights park willed the park to the town with the stipulation of it remaining dry then that's that. The property is "owned" by someone, and if their wishes aren't going to be followed then lose the land. Collingswood can't afford to lose that space.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by kel6604

I LOVE Collingswood! I'm not a resident but my close friend has lived there for 8 years (Collings Ave). I agree that something needs to be done with the retail aspect of Haddon Ave, the stores do seem to come and go and there are no go to, destination type stores. But as far as it being a dry town, I think that's a good thing! With bars come riff raff, more drunk driving, and all around rowdiness. Who wants that in their town? If the owners of Knights park willed the park to the town with the stipulation of it remaining dry then that's that. The property is "owned" by someone, and if their wishes aren't going to be followed then lose the land. Collingswood can't afford to lose that space.

Exactly. Trader Joe's & a couple of other stable stores to anchor the shopping on Haddon Ave. would go a long way towards getting a good, stable business area. Bars & night clubs come & go. Grocery stores are not flight risks.

[GraysFerryB4]

I'll split the middle and go with the retail over the bars. Just think of what Tom-567 said though. If he wants to hang out with other young profs, he has to go to Westmont or Philly. Show me the evils of the bars in Westmont and I'll take back my request for bars in Collingswood. I'd love to see retail in Collingswood that works ( Trader Joe's Jack & Janine, Pottery Barn) but the town makes no effort to woo them in. I was rudely told that I was unwelcome at the business meeting. Just challenged my taxes and lost too. Looks like we're leaveing here next Spring. It's NOT "where you want to be".

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by GraysFerryB4

I'll split the middle and go with the retail over the bars. Just think of what Tom-567 said though. If he wants to hang out with other young profs, he has to go to Westmont or Philly. Show me the evils of the bars in Westmont and I'll take back my request for bars in Collingswood. I'd love to see retail in Collingswood that works ( Trader Joe's Jack & Janine, Pottery Barn) but the town makes no effort to woo them in. I was rudely told that I was unwelcome at the business meeting. Just challenged my taxes and lost too. Looks like we're leaveing here next Spring. It's NOT "where you want to be".

Sorry to hear that you are going to move out. Collingswood needs folks who want to be involved and bring positive change. Unfortunately like almost any place you need an "in" or your opinion doesn't count.

I sincerely hope they can get their act together and finish what they started. I'm with you that retail is a better road to take right now then bars. They need a few real retail establishments to help anchor the avenue. If they could get those and figure out the Woodlynne question, they would be well on their way to becoming a premier community again.

I just get the feeling that they've exhausted the money to continue the improvements and are now going to be in a position of either raising taxes or cutting back on what they have already done. In hindsight a fiscally conservative Collingswood that can keep the taxes low, not incur debt and focus on continual improvements to the school would have been a far more attractive town then the one they have created.

[GraysFerryB4]

Interesting new post on the mayor's blog about the state of the town:


Collingswood Police Services in Woodlynne
On June 14, after our last Commission meeting, the County Prosecutor, Warren Faulk, called me at home and asked to meet regarding the state of policing in Woodlynne after the Collingswood services end on July 3, 2010. He asked me to a meeting with a representative of the New Jersey Department of Community Affairs

Chief Sarlo accompanied me and we were advised that Woodlynne had no plans in place for police services. We were asked to consider providing police service. We indicated we were also concerned about what policing there would be in the short term and in the long term. We were asked to a meeting in Trenton with a Deputy Commissioner, the Prosecutor and Woodlynne officials.[/SIZE][/LEFT]

After a long meeting in Trenton, we have reached a tentative agreement to provide police services for an additional 90 days while the State and Woodlynne work to organize a permanent policing solution for Woodlynne. We agreed under certain conditions:[/SIZE][/LEFT]

1. Woodlynne will pre-pay the full amount due plus an 8 percent increase; [/SIZE][/LEFT]
]2. Woodlynne will post an escrow to cover any police overtime; [/SIZE][/LEFT]
3. Woodlynne has gone on record that the police services provided have been professional and competent and there will be no more disparaging comments about our policing; and [/SIZE][/LEFT]
4. Woodlynne's Public Safety Director will now act as liaison with our Police Chief, rather than having our Chief interact with the Woodlynne Mayor.

We are agreeing to this extension because we are very concerned that without it, Woodlynne would have no police services beginning this holiday weekend and this would have a direct affect on public safety for Collingswood.. We have been assured by the State that they are now working to provide Woodlynne a permanent police solution. (The other valuable side effect of this extension is we will avoid 3 police layoffs for another 90 days. While my concern is we are wreaking havoc with the professional lives of these officers, we are pleased they will stay on for a time. Perhaps with a retirement or two in the Department, we might avoid further layoff.)

About one year ago, Collingswood advised Woodlynne it did not wish to continue police service beyond the expiration of our Agreement - July 3, 2010 - unless Collingswood returned to conduct the housing and rental inspections in Woodlynne. We had heard from the PoliceChief and from our officers on the street that Woodlynne's decision to end our housing enforcement was making our policing less effective. I've attached a copy of the exchange of letters from last year on our website at the Mayor's Blog so you can see the dialogue for yourself.[/SIZE][/LEFT]]For right now, it looks like we will be policing Woodlynne an additional 90 days and keeping in contact with the State to see the progress on a permanent solution
Restructuring the Lumberyard Project[
]As everyone has seen, the economic times has slowed the Lumberyard Project along with many other development projects in the area. A combination of the “worst housing rescission in the history of the world” and the credit crunch affecting the banking world, have caused the project to take longer than originally planned and have stalled the completion of the Atlantic Avenue building. The half of the Atlantic Avenue building closest to Collings Avenue has, in essence, had eight of its units sold twice. Eight units were sold for the first time immediately after the Haddon Avenue building sold out, but the recession came upon us and those sales were lost because of persons losing their jobs, there was actually a death, and the freezing of credit slowed constructionFor the last ten months, we have been working on restructuring all aspects of the project

1.Restructuring the sales efforts

An in-house sales team was replaced in early spring of this year with Main Street Realty. Pat Ciervo and the crew of Main Street Realty have established a firm grip on the Collingswood market and their sales associates are bringing a new life to the sale and marketing of units within the Lumberyard. The sales office was moved to a model within the Atlantic Avenue building. New marketing materials have been developed, with a new look and a new direction of focus through new media and new markets. These efforts, helped with Federal housing tax credit assistance that resulted in nine sales in 2010. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]2. Restructuring the project phases[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]There is one remaining phase for the originally planned Lumberyard Project. This last phase called for a residential building constructed on the other side of Powell Lane. With the current status of the residential housing market, we have over the past nine months been exploring conversion of that building into a commercial building with offices on the upper floors and retail and professional space on the first floor. We are currently in discussions with two regional businesses for the construction of this building which would include the relocation of their offices into the location at Powell and Haddon Avenue. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The construction of this last phase as a commercial property would actually add to the mix of uses at the Lumberyard Project and along Haddon Avenue, providing an additional source of customers for our businesses and additional ratables to help provide some property tax relief. We are hoping to have some conceptual plans for this reworking of the last phase soon.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]3. Restructuring construction financing[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Within the parameters of the housing recession, the worst effect has been in the credit crunch throughout the banking industry. The Lumberyard’s construction financing has always been through the Thrift Institutions Community Investment Corporation of New Jersey (TICIC) which is a consortium of commercial banks throughout the State of New Jersey. The lead bank in this project has been Sun Bank. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]We have gone through months and months of evaluation, review of status and prospects of the project and the need for an infusion of additional capital to complete the second half of the Atlantic Avenue Building and are close to reaching a final agreement with the banks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]This restructuring of the construction financing will require the Borough to make an additional investment in order to match bank financing that will allow the completion of the brick façade on the remaining half of the Atlantic Avenue Building and finally open the public parking garage. The final amounts, timing of investment and details of the next steps of the project are expected to be finalized in the coming weeks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]4. Overall status[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]With the harsh budget times we have just completed, we are acutely aware of the need to complete this project without placing any additional burden on the Collingswood taxpayer. We are working on a method whereby the additional tax revenue generated from the completion of the units at the Lumberyard Project will be dedicated - in a type of lock box - toward any additional investment commitment required of the Borough to complete the project.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Even with these harsh economic times that have befallen this project, we expect this project to generate tax revenues to cover its expense and to provide property tax relief through the municipal and school taxes over the years to come.[/SIZE]
[/LEFT]

[solibs]

It was suggested that I weigh in on this (now sort of old) thread because I worked for a few years on the "heart of collingswood" project that included the Lumberyard planning as well as other phases not related to the Lumberyard site.

I'm quoting NJGoat here because he (or she) brought up all the main points in a concise format -

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

1. The dry town thing. The history on this is that the town was originally settled by two Quaker families, the Collings and Knight families. Obviously with the Quaker roots the town has historically always been dry. When the last of the members of the Knight family died they left a gift to the town, "Knight's Park". The park is held in trust and managed by a board of trustees that are responsible to the Knight family. The deal is that the town get's unlimited use of the park as long as the town remains dry. Even allowing BYOB restraunts was a fight, that the trustees ultimately conceeded as being acceptable.

The loss of Knight park has always been used as a threat and is sort of legend at this point. There's no truth to it. It's like saying that the Fairmount Park Commission could sell land if the city did something they didn't like.

I watched over a 4 year period as the mayor would occasionally ask, hypothetically, who would be in favor of allowing liquor sales. The scales gradually tipped in favor of liquor but only slightly. That's probably the biggest reason that it hasn't changed.

Other reasons include fairness. There are a lot of restaurants in Collingswood and some places like Sagami have been there for years. A town of 15,000 can't get an unlimited number of liquor licenses so who deserves one? Would it be fair if some restaurants had them and others didn't?

The other issue has to do with identity of the town . . . more about that later but how licenses get apportioned is a problem that needs to be fixed on the state level.

The Lumberyard - This area was an eyesore in the town for a long time and the development certainly improved the look of Haddon Ave. However, the prices for the units are simply too high to justify buying them. They are essentially nice, but small condos located directly next to the speedline tracks. As other's stated, why spend $300k+ on a 1br condo when that same money buys you an entire house in another part of town. I think the current trick they are using is a tax abatement similar to what Philly did to get people to buy homes there. Bottom line is that the prices need to be allowed to fall into the correct range so the units get sold. Problem is that the developer will get burned big time, but they need to do something.

They do seem pricey, OTOH, for new construction and for the location they're reasonably priced, especially when you consider all of the remediation that had to go into that site to prep it for stores and homes. Keep in mind that the borough is the "developer" on this project and most of the money they've used to get to this point has come in the form of state and federal grants for planning, design, engineering, etc. or from the profit the borough made from selling its other real estate holdings.

Considering how slow housing sales are in general (this is probably the worst time for real estate since the 1930s) and how many units in the Lumberyard came onto the market all at once the progress is not bad. The mayor actually put an update on his blog a few weeks ago explaining the situation in more detail saying how Phase 2 was held up by the banks saying that they wanted 50% of the units pre-sold before they would release any money. But buyers are wary of half built condo projects. It's a catch-22 for the borough. Phase 2 has proceeded and now they're looking at changing Phase 3 to a mix of retail and office space rather than residential in an attempt to get it built faster.

More office space in town makes a lot of sense as it's the one component Haddon Ave. has been missing. Without workers who is eating lunch at the restaurants or running errands on their breaks? but, IMHO, office space is better closer to the train station than it is at the Lumberyard . . . but money talks so I guess Lumberyard it is.

Haddon Ave. - When I was growing up the "Avenue" was a collection of random hair dressers and mom and pop stores, mainly of the thrift variety. They went out of business routinely. The most succesful places I can think of are the National Food Market and Lo's Chinese Food as they have both been in business and stable for a long time. Bringing in the restraunts even as BYOB's made sense, the problem is that there is nothing else to do after you eat. The Collingswood Business Association is an old boy's club and they have routinely blocked traditional retail from entering the town. The other huge issue is parking. Although plenty is available along the speedline tracks behind the Avenue, you basically end up walking through alleyways to get to the nicer areas. At the end of the day the town probably would have been better served turning the Lumberyard into a parking garage with ground level retail and skipped on the whole condo thing. If they can't get legitimate retail established the Avenue will always be a failure. People come to eat and leave and more and more they are finding fewer reasons to even come and eat as restraunts, even good ones, are ultimately a fad and if nothing else exists to help anchor them they will fail.

I can't comment on the politics of it but I can say that national retail chains on Haddon Ave. will only drive up the rents and make it a place not worth visiting. You can't out mall Cherry Hill. No one is going to come to Haddon Ave. to do something you can do on Route 70.

Collingswood needed/needs to establish an identity before it lets in the first Starbucks or Ben & Jerry's. It's still to early in this transition to let big money chains like that start vacuuming up the limited retail dollars that are circulating on the Avenue.

Parking is always an issue but garages will probably be coming with Phase 2 and Phase 3 of "heart of collingswood" (Lumberyard being Phase 1).

Schools - This is a major issue for Collingswoods long term viability as a nice or good town. The elementary schools are good, but the high school leaves quite a bit to be desired. The main reason for this is that Collingswood is stuck in sending/receiving agreements with Oaklyn and Woodlynne. While I don't think anyone complains about Oaklyn, Woodlynne has declined from a lower working class suburb into a mini-Camden. The population of students from Woodlynne has boomed as relatives take in high school aged relatives so they don't have to go to Camden High. This is turn has placed a tremendous burden on Collingswood and is dragging down the quality of the high school. No matter how you slice it quality schools is what stabilizes property values and attracts residents. The town needs to solve the "Woodlynne Issue" once and for all and get the high school back on track.

The key to solving the "Woodlynne Question" is to turn Woodlynne from an extension of Camden into an extension of Collingswood. As property values go up in Collingswood, as long as kids in Woodlynne have access to Collingswood schools, it will remain a viable option.

Image - Collingswood doesn't know what it wants to be. The population is split between people who have lived there for a long time and remember it as a rather quiet middle class suburb. The yuppie element envisions it as an extension of Center City. The town government seems to think that Collingswood = Haddonfield Jr. The problem is that none of these visions are really possible until they do some major work. The older population isn't happy with any major changes and while they tolerated a lot of change during the boom, current property values don't support the sacrifice and taxes are only going up to pay for the bonds and debt the town accumulated during it's rebuilding. The yuppies are disappointed because at the end of the day, there just isn't anything to do in Collingswood. It's not Center City, not even close. The town needs more night life, more retail and yes, a couple nice bars before it can achieve that image. The government folks are crazy to think Collingswood can be a Haddonfield. The town simply doesn't have the pocket book for that and while the external image is very good, the reality is very different. Collingswood is still essentially a middle class working town. However, Collingswood could be more like a Haddon Twp. with an actual downtown and enjoy the higher property values if they could fix the schools.

and that brings me back to the liquor license thing. The mayor once told me "the only thing keeping Collingswood from becoming 'Manayunk East' is that it's a dry town. And what he meant by "Manayunk" is the image of former frat kids going wild on a Saturday night. Now that the restaurant scene is starting to mature maybe it's time to start talking about liquor licenses but i think another 4-5 years is needed before restaurants should start applying. The town is less than 10 years into pretty major transition. The brand still needs time to be established.

Two more things - I bought just off of Haddon Ave. in 2000 for what amounts to a song and a dance these days. My job drew me to Center City but I held onto the house for a while selling it in '05 for double what I paid for it. A similar house today would sell for still more. Point is, if you've been living there for a long time your home equity has done quite well.

Lastly - I think Haddon Ave. in Collingswood is much nicer than in Westmont. When I drive through Westmont it just looks like an incoherent mess that's not a fun place to walk around. I don't think Collingswood can or should try to be like Haddonfield. Haddonfield is boring. I think what Collingswood has the opportunity to be is more like an Ardmore and, if the economy ever recovers and the next phases can happen - along Atlantic where the Police Station is and around the train station - then the town will take a big step closer to that.

[NJGOAT]

solibs - You brought up some very good points. The one thing that I found most interesting was one little blurb you had about office space. It never really struck me how few office buildings and facilities there really are in Collingswood. Given the location it would be an ideal setup for a lot of businesses and as you stated it would bring a lot of dollars to the restraunts and shops on Haddon Ave. from the workers in those offices.

The Manayunk comment was also interesting as I don't think the core demographics of the town really want to become another Manayunk. However, becoming an "Ardmore" would make a very positive impact on Collingswood.

You seem to have some knowledge about the park. As you said that was always used as either the excuse or threat to prevent liquor sales. You compared it to Fairmount Park, but what is the real nature of the agreement/will? Obviously there is some truth to the "legend", but what would happen to the park if the town allowed liquor sales?

The Lumberyard was a necessary project as something had to be done with the land. However, I think the the condo project was a little short sighted. You seem to think that the pricing is justified, but considering you can get a very nice single family in Collingswood for the same money or a nice house in Haddon Twp. or even a brand new home in Audubon for the same money, they are overpriced. If they offered something spectacular for the money, then I could understand it, but they are pretty much average.

For me, it still all comes back to the schools. When I attended Collingswood schools (graduated in '98), the schools were considered good and outside of Haddonfield were equal to any other in the area. The thing that scares me is that despite the millions poured into the school system for rennovations, the current schools are not at the same level they were even 10 years ago. You can't have a healthy suburb that's not a Manayunk unless you have good schools. Currently the town boasts two excellent "blue ribbon" elementaries in Tatem and Zane North. Unfortunately, the other three are nothing more than average to below average. If you look at property values, homes in the Tatem or Zane North area carry a premium. They need to fix the school system and IMO one of the things they need to do is solve the "Woodlynne Question". The town tried to turn Woodlynne into an extension of Collingswood and despite all the best intentions, Woodlynne rejected those moves and is content to continue their slide into who knows what. I personally think it is in the best interests of Collingswood to sever those ties.

The biggest thing still lingering is what to do with the debt now that the credit markets are dried up. Collingswood is leveraged to the hilt to pay for all of the revitalization. They need to get that in check and prevent taxes from skyrocketing. Right now Collingswood represents a value versus Haddon Twp. and Haddon Heights. The schools are not as good, but you get a more vibrant town. The problem is if the taxes start to move into the realm of what is paid in those other towns Collingswood won't be a value anymore and those who can will move.

So, I see Collingswood as having two choices:

1. Fix the school system and become a hipper Haddon Twp.
2. Fix the retail, add liquor sales and cater to the young professional crowd.

I think number 1 is the best course for the town and it's best prospect for long term success.

[tom_567]

Weighing in again a month later, I think you really need to do both #1 and #2, NJGOAT. Off-topic, but I graduated Washington Twp in 2001, so we're close in age. Schools have headed downhill in Twp. since I left too.

I wholeheartedly agree that Collingswood needs to have a value proposition for homeowners.

#1 is needed to not lose out on single family home sales to towns with similar tax situations and better school systems (Haddon Twp., etc.) as you suggested.

I think you're discounting #2 though. #2 does not exist in South Jersey, and there is a large contingent of young profs around here at major employers in Cherry Hill and Mount Laurel who spend their rent, retail, liquor, and restaurant dollars in Philadelphia. Collingswood offers a better location for this crowd -- having a car in South Jersey is half the insurance cost and comes with free parking. My NJ property tax bill still manages to beat parking spot rental, bridge tolls, wage tax, Philly property tax, and the PA state tax I would pay living in Philly.

Also, I think there are some things that are stopping Collingswood from becoming the next Manayunk - its mixed housing stock and already better school system. Manayunk is full of cheap rental row houses and proximity to many Philadelphia area colleges. Collingswood is only convenient to Rutgers-Camden and the forthcoming Med School in Camden.

When I bought my house last December, single families in Collingswood carried a significant premium over twin and rowhouse stock. Post-college frat kids aren't going to rent out my 2bd 1000 sq ft single because of economics -- it's $1800+ a month to cover my expenses. If they "invaded", they'll stick to the twins, rows, and apartments towards Haddon Ave that are cheaper, less desireable housing stock for families today anyway (and many are already rentals). So, single homes will still be mostly families, because they require high earners or dual incomes to afford the purchase prices. Sounds to me that the area as a whole could be more like a less ritzy Hoboken than a Manayunk.

Liquor licenses downtown would supply the town with big bucks, the downtown district would have more vibrancy and sustainability for business rents, and young people starting out would have a solid place to rent and build a social community, buy a place, and raise a family when the school system comes around.

Plus, you still have the great location which works for everyone involved. I don't really see a downside, besides some potential additional noise around Haddon Ave late at night. But hey, maybe it would drown out the construction on the train tracks.