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I believe that if you build it, they will come (and bring other benefits along the way). I know many people who ride the speedline to work in the city everyday, and others who take it on the weekends to go out. Adding rail capacity isn't meant to replace cars, its purpose is in fact to complement roadways. And with traffic as bad as ever, that's a great thing.
more good reasons. I looked into taking public transportation to work when I lived in pa(Work is also in pa) and it was brutal. My drive was 20 minutes but the bus/train alternative was 1.5 hours one way and 24.00 a day. Crazy.. If we ever get beter rail/besses and we can cut that down to a reasonable cost and time I would do it.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherno
Actually, South Jersey is well below the state average on property taxes (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11898551@N03/6335629849/in/photostream/lightbox/ - broken link) at least.
Property taxes are based on property values & that pays the local freight. Once the state income taxes went into effect, which was primarily put in to even out the schools via state reimbursements, & the gas tax money which is supposed to build & repair roads, the South Jersey money went North, except for the school money, which is required by law.
Citing property tax differences has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
I remember when there was no income tax & no sales tax in NJ. The income tax was put in to even out school money & the sales tax was supposed to bolster state funds to be used throughout the state. The vast majority of the money went to North Jersey. Again, not one penny went to South Jersey for mass transit until the Red Arrow bus company out of PA folded.
Yeah that pretty much sums it up. That's NJ's relationship with the nation as a whole as well. This state's ratio of tax dollars sent to the federal govt vs. what we get back is the worst out of all fifty states.
As for the interchange project, I am not positive but if I remember correctly, very few people or possibly even nobody will be kicked off their properties. The biggest issue is that part of the new roadway will go very close by a cemetery. Also, some of the locals in Bellmawr aren't looking forward to having new noise walls in their backyard, obviously.
I have family members (secular) who work within the Archdiocese of Camden, which is the organization that owns the cemetery in question. A portion of unused land from the cemetery is needed for the project, but word on the street is that the church is more than willing to sell it to the state for the right price and "future considerations", lol.
AFAIK, the project is pretty much guaranteed, but I don't want to know what kind of hell on Earth it will be around there during the proposed 5 years or so of construction. Hello, NJ Turnpike for my evening commute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87
more good reasons. I looked into taking public transportation to work when I lived in pa(Work is also in pa) and it was brutal. My drive was 20 minutes but the bus/train alternative was 1.5 hours one way and 24.00 a day. Crazy.. If we ever get beter rail/besses and we can cut that down to a reasonable cost and time I would do it.
Public transit is the kind of thing that is great when it's convenient for you and you could care less about it when it's not.
When we lived in Voorhees and I worked at 9th and Sansom I could walk to the Ashland PATCO station in about 5 minutes and it would drop me off 2 blocks from work. It was faster than driving and cost a little less (I had free parking in the city).
When we moved to Moorestown, it suddenly became a real inconvenience to take PATCO. I could drive down 295 to Woodcrest and take the train, but it cost me more to park and take the train than it did for the bridge toll. Then factor in that driving direct took less time (straight shot up 38 to Ben Franklin and then take 8th down to Sansom) and it made no sense to take the train. If there had been a PATCO stop in Moorestown it might have made sense, but the problem with all of the expanded lines so far (RiverLine and the proposed one to Pitman) is that they all terminate at Walter Rand and you need to transfer to PATCO into the city. So, with no direct service and having to change trains, it starts taking more time, more hassle and more money.
People are only going to take transit if it saves them money or is faster. If you don't have both, then one or the other needs to be significant or no one is going to choose commuting to work with the "tired, poor and sick huddled masses" versus riding in their own personal steel, leather lined chariot.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
I have family members (secular) who work within the Archdiocese of Camden, which is the organization that owns the cemetery in question. A portion of unused land from the cemetery is needed for the project, but word on the street is that the church is more than willing to sell it to the state for the right price and "future considerations", lol.
AFAIK, the project is pretty much guaranteed, but I don't want to know what kind of hell on Earth it will be around there during the proposed 5 years or so of construction. Hello, NJ Turnpike for my evening commute.
Public transit is the kind of thing that is great when it's convenient for you and you could care less about it when it's not.
When we lived in Voorhees and I worked at 9th and Sansom I could walk to the Ashland PATCO station in about 5 minutes and it would drop me off 2 blocks from work. It was faster than driving and cost a little less (I had free parking in the city).
When we moved to Moorestown, it suddenly became a real inconvenience to take PATCO. I could drive down 295 to Woodcrest and take the train, but it cost me more to park and take the train than it did for the bridge toll. Then factor in that driving direct took less time (straight shot up 38 to Ben Franklin and then take 8th down to Sansom) and it made no sense to take the train. If there had been a PATCO stop in Moorestown it might have made sense, but the problem with all of the expanded lines so far (RiverLine and the proposed one to Pitman) is that they all terminate at Walter Rand and you need to transfer to PATCO into the city. So, with no direct service and having to change trains, it starts taking more time, more hassle and more money.
People are only going to take transit if it saves them money or is faster. If you don't have both, then one or the other needs to be significant or no one is going to choose commuting to work with the "tired, poor and sick huddled masses" versus riding in their own personal steel, leather lined chariot.
Depending on where I worked I have taken the PATCO line since Sept. of 1969, when I started college in center city, when possible.
When PATCO originally went to Trenton about the expansions there were 2 versions. One version had the spurs joining in Camden & the other had all 3 lines proceeding to center city on a bridge dedicated to trains.
The EPA has recognized some projects that have notable smart growth. Worth the click. One, in NM, involves light rail. Would love to see an NJ town make that list in the future.
Depending on where I worked I have taken the PATCO line since Sept. of 1969, when I started college in center city, when possible.
When PATCO originally went to Trenton about the expansions there were 2 versions. One version had the spurs joining in Camden & the other had all 3 lines proceeding to center city on a bridge dedicated to trains.
One would think the three lines all going into CC would have been the best option. Transfering is a pain no matter what especially if you need to get on train A in your town, change to train B in Camden to get into the city and then change to yet another train or bus to get to your job. One transfer can be reasonable, two is getting ridiculous.
Out of curiosity I looked up some statistics on commuting into Philly.
According to city-data the population of Philly increases by around 90,000 each day do to commuters. Now, that doesn't account for the ones coming from PA vs. NJ. PATCO says it handles 33,000 passengers a day, so let's just assume that double that commute by car from NJ into Philly, or 66,000 people.
Now, here are some stats by County from the US Census:
County.........Number of Working Age......Total Jobs in County
Burlington.....246,803...........................1 80,644
Camden........323,603...........................17 3,417
Gloucester....181,621............................8 6,094
Now, these numbers are based on my math to make an educated guess. The "Working Age" is just the entire population between 18 and 65 and doesn't account for unemployment, those who have never been employed, disabled, etc. So, the actual employment pool is smaller than represented. The "Jobs in County" is based on the actual number of people who work for an employer. It does count agriculture or sole proprietorships.
If we add it all up we get the following:
752,027 workers.
440,155 jobs located in the counties themselves.
66,000 people commute to work in Philadelphia.
So, by percentage:
58.58% of people in Camden, Burlington and Gloucester County work within the three counties themselves.
8.77% of people in those same counties commute to work in Philadelphia.
32.65% of people work in a location not listed above, own their own private business, work in agriculture, are unemployed, disabled, etc.
We know that a little less than a third of the people above are unemployed and a decent portion of them must certainly be college students, people who choose not to work, own their own business, etc.
What does this mean? What it means is that by my best educated guess, the large majority of people who live in South Jersey work in South Jersey; with the next largest group being outside of South Jersey and Philadelphia, with the smallest number being people who commute into the city for employment.
Why does this matter? In my estimation it proves that South Jersey and these counties in particular are not exurbs as they contain the bulk of employment for most people in the area. It also means that someone who may be living in Salem, Cumberland, etc. may not really be as exurban as one would assume if we adjust for where their employment center is.
It also calls into question the ability of mass transit to truly serve the needs of this population. Since the large majority of people do not work in anything resembling a concentrated business center like Center City, mass transit actually becomes far less efficient and costly versus commuting by car. Transit is best at moving a large chunk of people from A to B. Not picking up people from J,K,L,M,N,O,P and moving them to Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X, etc.
This is also one of the MAJOR differences between South Jersey and the Philly metro compared to other cities that seem to embody "smart growth" ideals and people are moving to more urban areas. In Austin, all the jobs are in Austin or office parks in the immediate vicinity. You simply don't have the geogrpahical diversity of employment. If you live in an Austin suburb, you and most likely just about everyone else around you, works in Austin. If you live in Marlton among you and your 9 neighbors, 1 will work in Philly, 6 will work somewhere in the immediate area, 1 will be unemployed and of the other 2, they would be a mix of private business owners, stay at home parents, disabled, etc. For only one person could we realistically consider Marlton an exurb.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
One would think the three lines all going into CC would have been the best option. Transfering is a pain no matter what especially if you need to get on train A in your town, change to train B in Camden to get into the city and then change to yet another train or bus to get to your job. One transfer can be reasonable, two is getting ridiculous.
Out of curiosity I looked up some statistics on commuting into Philly.
According to city-data the population of Philly increases by around 90,000 each day do to commuters. Now, that doesn't account for the ones coming from PA vs. NJ. PATCO says it handles 33,000 passengers a day, so let's just assume that double that commute by car from NJ into Philly, or 66,000 people.
Now, here are some stats by County from the US Census:
County.........Number of Working Age......Total Jobs in County
Burlington.....246,803...........................1 80,644
Camden........323,603...........................17 3,417
Gloucester....181,621............................8 6,094
Now, these numbers are based on my math to make an educated guess. The "Working Age" is just the entire population between 18 and 65 and doesn't account for unemployment, those who have never been employed, disabled, etc. So, the actual employment pool is smaller than represented. The "Jobs in County" is based on the actual number of people who work for an employer. It does count agriculture or sole proprietorships.
If we add it all up we get the following:
752,027 workers.
440,155 jobs located in the counties themselves.
66,000 people commute to work in Philadelphia.
So, by percentage:
58.58% of people in Camden, Burlington and Gloucester County work within the three counties themselves.
8.77% of people in those same counties commute to work in Philadelphia.
32.65% of people work in a location not listed above, own their own private business, work in agriculture, are unemployed, disabled, etc.
We know that a little less than a third of the people above are unemployed and a decent portion of them must certainly be college students, people who choose not to work, own their own business, etc.
What does this mean? What it means is that by my best educated guess, the large majority of people who live in South Jersey work in South Jersey; with the next largest group being outside of South Jersey and Philadelphia, with the smallest number being people who commute into the city for employment.
Why does this matter? In my estimation it proves that South Jersey and these counties in particular are not exurbs as they contain the bulk of employment for most people in the area. It also means that someone who may be living in Salem, Cumberland, etc. may not really be as exurban as one would assume if we adjust for where their employment center is.
It also calls into question the ability of mass transit to truly serve the needs of this population. Since the large majority of people do not work in anything resembling a concentrated business center like Center City, mass transit actually becomes far less efficient and costly versus commuting by car. Transit is best at moving a large chunk of people from A to B. Not picking up people from J,K,L,M,N,O,P and moving them to Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X, etc.
This is also one of the MAJOR differences between South Jersey and the Philly metro compared to other cities that seem to embody "smart growth" ideals and people are moving to more urban areas. In Austin, all the jobs are in Austin or office parks in the immediate vicinity. You simply don't have the geogrpahical diversity of employment. If you live in an Austin suburb, you and most likely just about everyone else around you, works in Austin. If you live in Marlton among you and your 9 neighbors, 1 will work in Philly, 6 will work somewhere in the immediate area, 1 will be unemployed and of the other 2, they would be a mix of private business owners, stay at home parents, disabled, etc. For only one person could we realistically consider Marlton an exurb.
Exactly. The whole smart growth concept, as it stands now, is based for cities & metros that are not as old & established.
Exactly. The whole smart growth concept, as it stands now, is based for cities & metros that are not as old & established.
Though there is still plenty of growth potential
I often wondered if a Metro like system from Wilmington to Plainsboro would not be a huge boon. This could link obviously with Philly and also run on both sides of the Delaware (maybe to use some ROW of the Betsy to get accross (could link with Patco further South on the Jersey side)
Regional planning would probably be more effective and help redevelop areas on both sides of the River and also foster development of new TOD development and promote jobs on both sides potentially strem lining business development (ala DC model)
But to me this owuld be huge to move people along the corrider and promote jobs along that core (just what to do about the mess on the PA side known as KOP/Malvern/Collegeville with totally crappy service (Maybe a PA turnpike line that would also come back and link with the BSL up 309)
Ok off topic but to me better region wide planning is better than either NJ or PA spot planning
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
Though there is still plenty of growth potential
I often wondered if a Metro like system from Wilmington to Plainsboro would not be a huge boon. This could link obviously with Philly and also run on both sides of the Delaware (maybe to use some ROW of the Betsy to get accross (could link with Patco further South on the Jersey side)
Regional planning would probably be more effective and help redevelop areas on both sides of the River and also foster development of new TOD development and promote jobs on both sides potentially strem lining business development (ala DC model)
But to me this owuld be huge to move people along the corrider and promote jobs along that core (just what to do about the mess on the PA side known as KOP/Malvern/Collegeville with totally crappy service (Maybe a PA turnpike line that would also come back and link with the BSL up 309)
Ok off topic but to me better region wide planning is better than either NJ or PA spot planning
I agree. In fact, I can remember when it actually was done, to a degree.
Exactly. The whole smart growth concept, as it stands now, is based for cities & metros that are not as old & established.
I would actually say it is the opposite of this. The newer metros in the sunbelt have room to expand off to the horizon, and this is resulting in massive amounts of sprawl. Hell, Phoenix is over 500sq mi. It is almost embarrassing that its population didn't top Philly's in the 2010 census, seeing as Philly is only 135 sq mi. On the other hand, the older metros in the Northeast have limited space, so they by necessity have to act smart to fit more jobs and people in the region.
I see what GOAT is saying about distributed employment centers. This is an issue for the Delaware Valley in particular - Center City holds a low proportion of jobs versus the entire region, compared to many other metros. But this does not change the fact that the Northeast is much more built out than many of the younger regions of the nation. If we want to compete with Atlanta, Houston, etc in the future, smart growth is a must.
In fact, the fact that people in Austin all live in a suburb and commute to the core is not really a good example of smart growth at all. Smart growth in its essence is the idea that a town or city has a walkable and transit-accessible center where people live, work, shop, and play. Having downtown Austin empty out after 6pm is what urban planners should be avoiding. In a truly effective train line system coupled with smart growth, almost every stop would have some form of job centers near it, rather than the train just getting fuller and fuller the closer you get to Center City.
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