Collingswood vs Haddon Twp - Schools Review (Camden, Haddonfield: how much, house)

[PHL_SJ_Newby]

Hi all,

My wife and are now in the process of deciding where we'd like to settle, start a family (hopefully), and buy a house. The feedback on where to live from everyone on the forum has been great (posted last year when we moved to Philly from NYC), so I'm hoping for further feedback specific to the schools.

I understand that pride of community can at times sway peoples opinions, which is understandable, but I'm hoping for some honest and insightful feedback from parents, recent graduates and young families about the true state of the school systems; positives and negatives.

After reviewing the ratings (publications, school based sites etc), as well as the NJ state school stats reports, Haddon Twp seems to be clearly the better school system. The class sizes, the extracurricular programs, graduation rates, and standardized test schools are all impressive. Before making the decision to focus our move on settling in Haddon Twp, I am interested in hearing from posters honest reviews on the Collingswood School system, especially the high school.

Q: What are the negatives about the Collingswood School system, and differences (vs Haddon Twp)?
Q: Has the Collingswood school system been improving noticeably since the influx of young families, and young couples moving from Philadelphia to the area? I.e. is there the expectation that the Collingswood HS will improve as the young families that have moved to the area over the last 10 years have their children attend the HS?
Q: Is there a high level of parent involvement in extracurricular and arts based programs at both schools?
Q: Experiences and thoughts on benefits/negatives linked to school diversity, class sizes etc at both schools?

Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[Tangled Threads]

The make up of the Collingswood and Haddon Township school systems are quite similar. 1 High School, 1 Middle School and 5 Elementary Schools. I believe the population of HT is slightly larger than Collingswood but I don't know how much this impacts the school population. Collingswood total enrollment as of 3/13 was 1856 (per BOE agenda). I would say the main difference is that there are 2 sending districts for Collingswood High School; Woodlynne for 9-12 and Oaklyn for 10-12. There has been over the last few years a consolidation or sharing of many services between these three districts at the lower grades, so the similarities between the districts are increasing and the differences decreasing. Demographically, I do not know what the differences are between the 2 towns; I'm sure this info is readily available online. One thing that seems to impact Collingswood test scores is the transiency of students according to the annual BOE reporting of test scores.

I think the Collingswood schools are well-supported by many parents. Collingswood has a growing recreation program that includes a youth theater and Odyssey of the Mind aside from the usual sports offerings. The Collingswood High School marching band has received considerable recognition of late.

Class sizes at the Collingswood elementary level tend to vary from school to school and grade to grade (check with the school district for numbers). There is usually only one class per grade per school so a child could end up in a particularly large or small class depending on the population in the school's catchment for that year.

Great things about the Collingswood School District - fantastic teachers, constantly improving curriculum, sense of community around schools (especially elementary), well maintained (especially considering the age of most of the schools), decent instructional technology, strong elementary music program.

Things that could use improvement about the Collingswood School District - expanded gifted and talented/honors program at the elementary and middle school levels (this isn't just a Collingswood thing- it's really a state-wide issue to be fair), elementary school libraries have all but been abandoned by the district and are run by volunteers, weak elementary art program, lack of extracurricular(non-athletic) activities at the elementary and middle school level (more of a town-wide issue, not just schools)

If you haven't already, I would reach out to the school district (numbers/emails are readily available on the district's page in Collingswood). Collingswood Public Schools

Overall, I think the Collingswood School District is slowly, but steadily, improving. Over the past 9 years, with children in the school district, I have been impressed by most of the changes made.

Hopefully, someone with knowledge of the Haddon Twp school district will chime in but if not, I would not hesitate to contact that district as well.

[PHL_SJ_Newby]

This is great feedback, can't thank you enough. Exactly what I was after. Test scores (especially standardized test scores) only tell so much about the value of a school. Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

[GraysFerryB4]

I have been living in Collingswood for 6 years now and we plan to stay here. Although we do not have kids, I would be proud of the direction of the school system from what I see. Haddon Twp may have a better edge on paper but I give the edge to the town of Collingswood as a whole. The "village" feel of the downtown makes it more lively to me and not a sleepy suburb. With the new AVI tax hike in Philly, I would guess an influx of young, family starter hipsters is not far behind.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by PHL_SJ_Newby

Hi all,

My wife and are now in the process of deciding where we'd like to settle, start a family (hopefully), and buy a house. The feedback on where to live from everyone on the forum has been great (posted last year when we moved to Philly from NYC), so I'm hoping for further feedback specific to the schools.

I understand that pride of community can at times sway peoples opinions, which is understandable, but I'm hoping for some honest and insightful feedback from parents, recent graduates and young families about the true state of the school systems; positives and negatives.

After reviewing the ratings (publications, school based sites etc), as well as the NJ state school stats reports, Haddon Twp seems to be clearly the better school system. The class sizes, the extracurricular programs, graduation rates, and standardized test schools are all impressive. Before making the decision to focus our move on settling in Haddon Twp, I am interested in hearing from posters honest reviews on the Collingswood School system, especially the high school.

I'll answer what I can on each question. As background for myself, I was born and raised in Collingswood and graduated from the high school in the late 90's after which I attended Boston College. My parents still reside in Collingswood and both of them work for Haddon Township High School, with one being a 25+ year employee and the other working part-time as they are retired. I have several friends/associates/family that are still active in Collingswood as teachers, firemen and police officers.

Q: What are the negatives about the Collingswood School system, and differences (vs Haddon Twp)?

The biggest difference between the two are racial and socio-economic diversity. This is seen most acutely at the high school level where students from Oaklyn and Woodlynne attend Collingswood High School. Some quick demographics from 2010 census...

Collingswood: 82% white, $74,000 median family income, 19.5% child poverty rate, 19.4% under 18.
Oaklyn: 93% white, $86,000 median family income, 1.4% child poverty rate, 20.5% under 18.
Woodlynne: 28% white, $45,000 median family income, 20.9% child poverty rate, 30.2% under 18.
Haddon Twp: 93% white, $90,000 mdeian family income, 2.4% child poverty rate, 21.7% under 18.

At the high school level, demographics are not easy to come by without digging. However, enrollment in free/reduced lunch programs are a pretty clear delineator of affluency...

Collingswood: 26.8% free lunch, 7.6% reduced - total 34.4%
Haddon Township: 7.7% free lunch, 3.7% reduced - total 11.4%

As you can see, much of the difference in the performance numbers can be attributed to simple demographic differences. Collingswood from elementary through to the high school level has a higher poverty rate than Haddon Township. When Woodlynne students enter Collingswood High School, they further push this number into negative territory. The lower ratio of children in Oaklyn and Collingswood means that a larger than expected percentage of kids in the high school are from Woodlynne. This is further complicated do to issues with "anchoring" where kids from Camden will live with a relative in Woodlynne so that they can attend Collingswood High School.

What does this matter? Well, the problem is that while Collingswood has some good elementary schools like Tatem and Zane North that are very equivalent to what you would find in Haddon Township, by the time those children hit high school, they are suddenly in a school where nearly 35% of the kids are at or near the poverty level with resources being expended to get them up to speed.

Ultimately, the greatest difference turns into the greatest negative if one is most interested in the academic environment.

Q: Has the Collingswood school system been improving noticeably since the influx of young families, and young couples moving from Philadelphia to the area? I.e. is there the expectation that the Collingswood HS will improve as the young families that have moved to the area over the last 10 years have their children attend the HS?

This is part of the great Collingswood revival myth. The fact is that the general make-up of Collingswood itself in terms of professions, people with degrees, etc. has not increased in any substantial amount versus where the town was at in 1990. Collingswood remains very much similar to the general area and NJ as a whole in that regard. There has been no "influx" of young educated couples and families beyond the replacement rate. Collingswood has not gotten more affluent or educated relative to what it has always been.

Oaklyn itself, similar to Collingswood has not changed much over the past twenty years.

What has changed is Woodlynne. Circa 1990 Woodlynne was a blue-collar working class town. It was basically a "poorer" Collingswood demographically. That has changed radically over the past twenty years and Woodlynne now has a very different make-up versus what it did previously. Woodlynne has also gotten younger whereas in the 1990's Woodlynne students may have made up 14% of a graduating class at Collingswood High, they now make up nearly 35%.

So, the elementary through middle school education in Collingswood has remained rather constant and is competitive with Haddon Township on that level. Where it all falls apart is at the high school level. It's not that there aren't good teachers and good programs, it's just that the character of the school has changed dramatically.

Basically, it doesn't matter how many young, educated, affluent families move to Collingswood. The problem is at the high school level and has everything to do with Woodlynne. As there is no way for Collingswood to dissolve that relationship short of an act of God, it is a problem Collingswood can't fix and must instead devote resources to managing.

Q: Is there a high level of parent involvement in extracurricular and arts based programs at both schools?

Both schools and towns are pretty similar when it comes to extracurricular programs. The arts programs at Collingswood from band to choir to theater is generally considered much stronger.

Q: Experiences and thoughts on benefits/negatives linked to school diversity, class sizes etc at both schools?

I think I answered that part above.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

My final thoughts would be that there has been a long running comparison/competition between Haddon Township and Collingswood schools. Twenty years ago, the differences were really minor. Collingswood was slightly more racially and socio-economically diverse, but overall education experience and performance were similar, with Haddon Township holding a numbers/ranking edge. Today, that level of equality and comparison really only exists at the elementary and middle school level. Collingswood's elementaries are a little more diverse, but they have a couple of very good schools, with Tatem being the clearest example. At the middle school level, the towns are pretty equal. It is at the high school level with the much larger socio-economic diversity in Collingswood where they diverge. Today, Haddon Township is a "top 100" high school in the state and Collingswood ranks in the bottom 70.

I think that a well grounded, well rounded kid with good support at home will do just fine at Collingswood. However, that same kid in Haddon Township will probably achieve even more owing to the better environment. The one major knock on Haddon Township is that it is a little more "cliquish" and universally preppy whereas while Collingswood is also "cliquish" there is a much greater diversity in kids and I think a generally higher level of acceptance for that diversity.

I know many families in Collingswood and a lot of them are considering or have sent their kids to private high schools because they did not like what was and is going on in the high school with slipping performance. Many of the people I went to school with, even the ones who work in the district, have tended to settle in nearby areas like Haddon Township, Cherry Hill and Haddon Heights in order to send their kids to those districts.

Overall, since education is what you are after the most, the town will offer you the best universal K-12 experience is Haddon Township.

[frankgn87]

THATS why goat won the $5k What an answer!

[PHL_SJ_Newby]

Couldn't have asked for better feedback, thank you! Our view is to look for a house we like, and if that falls in Collingswood we will be happy know that the school quality factor won't be an issue until High School. Thanks again for taking time to respond. Really is appreciated

[soug]

Damn both towns have 5 elementary schools each??! All of Voorhees has 4... seems like a waste of money and land to me.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

I'll answer what I can on each question. As background for myself, I was born and raised in Collingswood and graduated from the high school in the late 90's after which I attended Boston College. My parents still reside in Collingswood and both of them work for Haddon Township High School, with one being a 25+ year employee and the other working part-time as they are retired. I have several friends/associates/family that are still active in Collingswood as teachers, firemen and police officers.



The biggest difference between the two are racial and socio-economic diversity. This is seen most acutely at the high school level where students from Oaklyn and Woodlynne attend Collingswood High School. Some quick demographics from 2010 census...

Collingswood: 82% white, $74,000 median family income, 19.5% child poverty rate, 19.4% under 18.
Oaklyn: 93% white, $86,000 median family income, 1.4% child poverty rate, 20.5% under 18.
Woodlynne: 28% white, $45,000 median family income, 20.9% child poverty rate, 30.2% under 18.
Haddon Twp: 93% white, $90,000 mdeian family income, 2.4% child poverty rate, 21.7% under 18.

At the high school level, demographics are not easy to come by without digging. However, enrollment in free/reduced lunch programs are a pretty clear delineator of affluency...

Collingswood: 26.8% free lunch, 7.6% reduced - total 34.4%
Haddon Township: 7.7% free lunch, 3.7% reduced - total 11.4%

As you can see, much of the difference in the performance numbers can be attributed to simple demographic differences. Collingswood from elementary through to the high school level has a higher poverty rate than Haddon Township. When Woodlynne students enter Collingswood High School, they further push this number into negative territory. The lower ratio of children in Oaklyn and Collingswood means that a larger than expected percentage of kids in the high school are from Woodlynne. This is further complicated do to issues with "anchoring" where kids from Camden will live with a relative in Woodlynne so that they can attend Collingswood High School.

What does this matter? Well, the problem is that while Collingswood has some good elementary schools like Tatem and Zane North that are very equivalent to what you would find in Haddon Township, by the time those children hit high school, they are suddenly in a school where nearly 35% of the kids are at or near the poverty level with resources being expended to get them up to speed.

Ultimately, the greatest difference turns into the greatest negative if one is most interested in the academic environment.



This is part of the great Collingswood revival myth. The fact is that the general make-up of Collingswood itself in terms of professions, people with degrees, etc. has not increased in any substantial amount versus where the town was at in 1990. Collingswood remains very much similar to the general area and NJ as a whole in that regard. There has been no "influx" of young educated couples and families beyond the replacement rate. Collingswood has not gotten more affluent or educated relative to what it has always been.

Oaklyn itself, similar to Collingswood has not changed much over the past twenty years.

What has changed is Woodlynne. Circa 1990 Woodlynne was a blue-collar working class town. It was basically a "poorer" Collingswood demographically. That has changed radically over the past twenty years and Woodlynne now has a very different make-up versus what it did previously. Woodlynne has also gotten younger whereas in the 1990's Woodlynne students may have made up 14% of a graduating class at Collingswood High, they now make up nearly 35%.

So, the elementary through middle school education in Collingswood has remained rather constant and is competitive with Haddon Township on that level. Where it all falls apart is at the high school level. It's not that there aren't good teachers and good programs, it's just that the character of the school has changed dramatically.

Basically, it doesn't matter how many young, educated, affluent families move to Collingswood. The problem is at the high school level and has everything to do with Woodlynne. As there is no way for Collingswood to dissolve that relationship short of an act of God, it is a problem Collingswood can't fix and must instead devote resources to managing.



Both schools and towns are pretty similar when it comes to extracurricular programs. The arts programs at Collingswood from band to choir to theater is generally considered much stronger.



I think I answered that part above.



My final thoughts would be that there has been a long running comparison/competition between Haddon Township and Collingswood schools. Twenty years ago, the differences were really minor. Collingswood was slightly more racially and socio-economically diverse, but overall education experience and performance were similar, with Haddon Township holding a numbers/ranking edge. Today, that level of equality and comparison really only exists at the elementary and middle school level. Collingswood's elementaries are a little more diverse, but they have a couple of very good schools, with Tatem being the clearest example. At the middle school level, the towns are pretty equal. It is at the high school level with the much larger socio-economic diversity in Collingswood where they diverge. Today, Haddon Township is a "top 100" high school in the state and Collingswood ranks in the bottom 70.

I think that a well grounded, well rounded kid with good support at home will do just fine at Collingswood. However, that same kid in Haddon Township will probably achieve even more owing to the better environment. The one major knock on Haddon Township is that it is a little more "cliquish" and universally preppy whereas while Collingswood is also "cliquish" there is a much greater diversity in kids and I think a generally higher level of acceptance for that diversity.

I know many families in Collingswood and a lot of them are considering or have sent their kids to private high schools because they did not like what was and is going on in the high school with slipping performance. Many of the people I went to school with, even the ones who work in the district, have tended to settle in nearby areas like Haddon Township, Cherry Hill and Haddon Heights in order to send their kids to those districts.

Overall, since education is what you are after the most, the town will offer you the best universal K-12 experience is Haddon Township.

For years Haddon Heights & Haddon Twp were considered comparable, sort of Haddonfield-lite. I find it odd that on this board the comparisons are always Haddon Twp & Collingswood. Cherry Hill is usually the default, because there's a little bit of everything except a full-blown downtown.

[PHL_SJ_Newby]

I think it's fair to say that city dwellers, like my wife and I, like having amenities within walking distance and not being car dependent to do everything. Cherry Hill is a suburb (a nice one!) but the lack of main street is a factor for young families that are moving from cities.

I believe people compare Collingswood and Haddon Twp because of the proximity to active main streets (Haddon Ave and Kings). They are grouped in more for the lifestyle, than the comparable school systems.