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Old 06-09-2018, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Center City
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The term "edge city" was coined by former Washington Post reporter Joel Garreau to describe a new type of "downtown" that had emerged on the suburban fringe of a number of American cities since about 1960: a major retail center (usually with at least 1 million square feet of retail space in a fairly concentrated area, typically a shopping mall or malls) and employment hub (total employment somewhere north of 100,000) that was nonetheless not of traditional urban form and usually located near a major highway junction. None of the cities mentioned here qualify as they were all urban centers in their own right prior to World War II. The proper term for these is "satellite city." And some of these, like Wilmington, Del., became satellites mainly because their urban fringes merged with the urban fringe of another nearby metropolis and cross-commuting patterns emerged between the two. (For about six months in 2005, I commuted every day from my Center City Philadelphia home to a job just off Rodney Square in Wilmington.)
I grew up in Sussex County, graduated from the University of Delaware in 1977 and lived and worked in in Wilmington twice in the 1980s. Wilmington really isn’t a suburb of Philadelphia. As you note, it is the city’s proximity to Philadelphia that basically led to it being subsumed into the Philadelphia MSA. Economically, it does its own thing. I never knew anyone who awoke each day and drove into Philly for work, though there must be enough to support SEPTA’s Newark-Wilmington line.

Wilmington is a major center for the chemicals industry, though DuPont’s “merger” with Dow has diminished its star a bit. Still, it retained the world HQ for the 2 of the 3 business lines that resulted from the merger (though they are the two smallest of the bunch). Wilmington is a major US banking center hosting the headquarters of the credit card operations of Bank of America, Chase Card Services and Barclays Bank. In addition to several Delaware banks, the Dutch banking company ING and UK banking company HBSC chose to place their US headquarters in Wilmington. Further, Delaware's Chancery Court is thought to be the most sophisticated court for adjudicating US corporate legal matters, given over 60% of the Fortune 500 companies choose to incorporate in Delaware.

Wilmington is a geographically small city (only 17 square miles, 7 of which are water) with more of the wealth outside the city limits and much of the poverty concentrated inside those 10 square miles of land. This dynamic skews the crime and wealth statistics of a much larger city than it would appear on paper. As Delaware's only real city, Wilmington has a population of just over 70,000. This is deceiving, however, because Wilmington anchors New Castle County, with a population of over 550,000. The Greater Wilmington-Newark area supports over 300,000 jobs and attracts commuters from nearby Kent County, DE, Cecil County, MD, Chester and Delaware Counties in PA, and Salem County, NJ. As such, the metro serves as the economic engine of a region easily pushing 1 million in population. If Wilmington stood alone as an MSA, it would be comparable to a city the size of Tucson.

Wilmington does fall under Philadelphia’s influence in 3 important areas. The first is media. Wilmington has no major television stations and receives its news via Philly’s news outlets. I must say that coverage of Delaware news has improved since my two stints in the aera in the 1980s. Then, coverage of Delaware news was scant. Since returning, I’ve noted that the major channels seem to include some coverage of Delaware news on pretty much every broadcast, even assinging reporters to cover the state.

The second area in which Philly holds sway over Wilmington is culture, particularly the performing arts. Wilmington has professional theatre, a symphony, and opera and ballet companies, so it’s possible to enjoy the arts while never leaving the city. But the quality of the arts in a city the size of Wilmington can’t begin to compare with that in a city the size of Philadelphia. I never saw this as a detriment to the residents of Wilmington when I lived there, but rather found it an advantage to have such a large city so nearby and accessible. I sure made many a pot-infused trips to the Spectrum back during my days at UD. But the cultural highway isn’t a total one-way street. I know many of my fellow Philadelphians who travel to the Brandywine Valley to enjoy its many gardens, museums and mansions.

And finally, Wilmington is too small to support any major league sports. But make no mistake, Wilmingtonians can go toe-to-toe with Philadelphians in their passion for anything Eagles, Phillies, Flyers or Sixers.
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Old 06-09-2018, 03:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Mercer County, NJ, was moved from the Philadelphia CSA to the New York CSA as of the 1990 Census. That county has been divided between both spheres of influence since Colonial times - Princeton University is where it is because the Presbyteries of New York and Philadelphia both wanted to establish a college and decided to go in on one together at a place halfway between the two cities. It's in Philadelphia's media orbit but both cities' commutersheds.
I lived in Mercer County for a couple years and got both NY and Philadelphia local & sports stations on my cable.
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:43 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Your frustration and disappointment with the long history of efforts to throw money at the problems in Camden comes through loud and clear here, and I don't blame you. I do think you and eliza61nyc were talking past each other when it came to policing, though.

Administratively, you are right: the Camden police force ultimately needs to be run by Camden to be both effective and efficient. But you yourself noted that Camden couldn't afford to run the police force it had. The county takeover may have pissed off the rest of Camden County, but it did make the quality of policing better in the city. That has to be chalked up as a success, small though it may be. However, a success of this type that in effect has one government colonizing another isn't stable or long-lasting.

However, from what I've read about Camden's municipal government over the years, and its fall into state receivership, it seems to me that ultimately, the real solution might have been a "unified government" for the county - city-county consolidation of the kind that took place across the Delaware in 1854 and that several other cities and counties have done since Indianapolis and Marion County, Ind., revived the practice in 1961. But I can only imagine how well that would have played in the rest of Camden County.



Both you and southbound_295 are saying the same thing in places here but don't seem to recognize it: Take what works and build on it. That stable black neighborhood? The LEAP academy? Community-based policing? All of these sound like they're working, and the issue is how to replicate or expand these.

I studied government in college but fully understand your stance on the effectiveness of politics. Especially since the political culture of Camden, like that of Philadelphia, is highly transactional - I've come to the conclusion over on my side of the river that most of our electeds may claim they're doing something for the benefit of their constituents, but in reality, their real beneficiaries are their politically connected friends or favored organizations, and if the community at large benefits, well, that was pure coincidence.

Our highly transactional politics IMO holds us back from making greater progress. However, Chicago's politics are just as transactional and every bit as corrupt if not more so, yet they manage to get more done there. (Unfortunately, the same crowd doing the same thing in Springfield are sending Illinois down the tubes right now.) Maybe it's something in the Delaware River water?







The Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City, PA-NJ-DE-MD Consolidated Statistical Area (CSA - a Census Bureau designation) comprises the following counties:

In Pennsylvania: Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery, Philadelphia
In New Jersey: Atlantic, Burlington, Camden, Cape May, Cumberland, Gloucester, Salem
In Delaware: New Castle
In Maryland: Cecil

(A CSA consists of two or more Metropolitan Statistical Areas [MSAs] that are highly integrated economically. The three MSAs that comprise the Philadelphia CSA are Philadelphia, Wilmington and Atlantic City.)

Mercer County, NJ, was moved from the Philadelphia CSA to the New York CSA as of the 1990 Census. That county has been divided between both spheres of influence since Colonial times - Princeton University is where it is because the Presbyteries of New York and Philadelphia both wanted to establish a college and decided to go in on one together at a place halfway between the two cities. It's in Philadelphia's media orbit but both cities' commutersheds.

The term "edge city" was coined by former Washington Post reporter Joel Garreau to describe a new type of "downtown" that had emerged on the suburban fringe of a number of American cities since about 1960: a major retail center (usually with at least 1 million square feet of retail space in a fairly concentrated area, typically a shopping mall or malls) and employment hub (total employment somewhere north of 100,000) that was nonetheless not of traditional urban form and usually located near a major highway junction. None of the cities mentioned here qualify as they were all urban centers in their own right prior to World War II. The proper term for these is "satellite city." And some of these, like Wilmington, Del., became satellites mainly because their urban fringes merged with the urban fringe of another nearby metropolis and cross-commuting patterns emerged between the two. (For about six months in 2005, I commuted every day from my Center City Philadelphia home to a job just off Rodney Square in Wilmington.)

While not part of the Philadephia CSA, I think a case can even be made for Reading as a "satellite city" of Philadelphia now. Nearby Lancaster, however, is not one but is a metropolitan hub in its own right. The diverging fates of those two cities might be useful to study.

Our leading edge city is King of Prussia. Cherry Hill also qualifies.

Legally, Norristown is no longer a borough but a fourth, newer class of municipality Pennsylvania added to its municipal code in the 1970s, a "home rule municipality." Home rule charters had previously been available only to cities, and then only to cities of a certain class or higher; this change allowed cities of lesser classes, boroughs and townships to adopt home rule charters too. Such municipalities legally cease to be the type they had historically been called, but the state law creating home rule municipalities allows them to keep their former titles. Norristown is one of the few home rule municipalities in the state that opted to drop its former designation; it's now known legally as the Municipality of Norristown. In terms of form, I too would consider boroughs the size of Norristown, or even Phoenixville or West Chester, small cities.
As usual you're the voice of reason.

Even though we're speaking of across the river, this is all information that everyone in the area should know.

By the time that my family showed up, in 1964, Camden was so bad that you would have been hard-pressed to find many people who would have been agreeable to consolidation of the county. After the feds attempted to mandate bussing, the status quo was set in stone. After multiple mayors were sent to prison, the attitude about Camden was sealed, even more so. No one, including the residents of Lawnside, has been thinking that consolidation was the way to go.

The "county police force" is not a long-term solution. My nephew was reporting to the Lockheed office in Camden, part of the time, for a while. He's back to reporting to the Moorestown office full time. Something happened with the Camden office & his bosses blamed it on the unstable police situation & pulled out.

Years ago, in Cherry Hill, we voted to change the township status. NJ had created a new hybrid township model that allows direct voting for mayor. We picked between the hybrid township & city status. Hybrid township won, but because of that, even if Cherry Hill becomes the largest municipality in the South Jersey portion of the MSA, the census people will never recognize it as such. They don't recognize that NJ has two forms of townships, & townships don't count for those matters

Camden is a mess. No one, not an individual or an organization has had the common sense to build on either viable residential neighborhood in the city. Every new project builds a new little island of not disaster. It's easy enough to point fingers & declare racial bias, but there's Lawnside & they don't feel differently than the white suburbanites.
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Old 06-10-2018, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
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Originally Posted by NewtownBucks View Post
I lived in Mercer County for a couple years and got both NY and Philadelphia local & sports stations on my cable.
That wouldn't surprise me at all, but:

The Philadelphia Inquirer and the network TV stations in Philadelphia maintained Trenton bureaus. The New York broadcast TV stations did not, though The New York Times did because it's the state capital. WPVI (6ABC) still maintains a bureau in Trenton, IIRC.

To your point, though, when Gov. Chris Christie got New Jersey out of the public broadcasting business by breaking up New Jersey Network, the NJN radio station serving Mercer County went to WNYC in New York rather than WHYY in Philadelphia, which operates the former NJN stations in Atlantic City, Berlin, Bridgeton, Cape May Court House and Manahawkin. WNET, operator of the only VHF TV station licensed to the state (like Delaware's only licensed VHF station, it's the public TV station serving the larger metropolitan center in an adjacent state), took over operation of the state's five UHF public TV stations.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Levittown
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The Philadelphia-Wilmington-Atlantic City, PA-NJ-DE-MD Consolidated Statistical Area (CSA - a Census Bureau designation) comprises the following counties:

In Pennsylvania: Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery, Philadelphia
In New Jersey: Atlantic, Burlington, Camden, Cape May, Cumberland, Gloucester, Salem
In Delaware: New Castle
In Maryland: Cecil

(A CSA consists of two or more Metropolitan Statistical Areas [MSAs] that are highly integrated economically. The three MSAs that comprise the Philadelphia CSA are Philadelphia, Wilmington and Atlantic City.)

Mercer County, NJ, was moved from the Philadelphia CSA to the New York CSA as of the 1990 Census. That county has been divided between both spheres of influence since Colonial times - Princeton University is where it is because the Presbyteries of New York and Philadelphia both wanted to establish a college and decided to go in on one together at a place halfway between the two cities. It's in Philadelphia's media orbit but both cities' commutersheds.
I have heard that Trenton historically has more of a tie to Philly than NY, but that definitely is not the case today, given that it is the state capital and North Jersey has way more influence on it than South Jersey. This is probably why they switched it. You can probably also make a case for extreme southwest Middlesex County - Plainsboro, Cranbury and parts of South Brunswick - since they tend to blend in with their Mercer neighbors, but a huge difference compared to Edison and Woodbridge obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The term "edge city" was coined by former Washington Post reporter Joel Garreau to describe a new type of "downtown" that had emerged on the suburban fringe of a number of American cities since about 1960: a major retail center (usually with at least 1 million square feet of retail space in a fairly concentrated area, typically a shopping mall or malls) and employment hub (total employment somewhere north of 100,000) that was nonetheless not of traditional urban form and usually located near a major highway junction. None of the cities mentioned here qualify as they were all urban centers in their own right prior to World War II. The proper term for these is "satellite city." And some of these, like Wilmington, Del., became satellites mainly because their urban fringes merged with the urban fringe of another nearby metropolis and cross-commuting patterns emerged between the two. (For about six months in 2005, I commuted every day from my Center City Philadelphia home to a job just off Rodney Square in Wilmington.)

While not part of the Philadephia CSA, I think a case can even be made for Reading as a "satellite city" of Philadelphia now. Nearby Lancaster, however, is not one but is a metropolitan hub in its own right. The diverging fates of those two cities might be useful to study.

Our leading edge city is King of Prussia. Cherry Hill also qualifies.
So what in your opinion would classify Reading as a "satellite city" of Philadelphia, but not Lancaster? Nearby York is only about 50 miles from downtown Baltimore, a straight run down 83. Never realized it was that close until I started venturing out to that area more. Would Allentown and Erie also be considered satellite cities then? Not necessarily of Philly and Pittsburgh since the former isn't much further from NYC either and the latter is also equidistant from Cleveland and Buffalo too.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
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Originally Posted by NYtoNJtoPA View Post
I have heard that Trenton historically has more of a tie to Philly than NY, but that definitely is not the case today, given that it is the state capital and North Jersey has way more influence on it than South Jersey. This is probably why they switched it. You can probably also make a case for extreme southwest Middlesex County - Plainsboro, Cranbury and parts of South Brunswick - since they tend to blend in with their Mercer neighbors, but a huge difference compared to Edison and Woodbridge obviously.
It was the state capital then too, and arguably North Jersey dominated the legislature then even more than it does now.

The Census Bureau usually bases the decision to put a county in a CSA or MSA based on commuting patterns.

It may well be that job growth in Middlesex especially has led more Greater Trentonians to commute to work in that adjacent county than to jobs in Burlington or the counties across the Delaware.

I can attest to this much: if the visit I made to a Chickie's and Pete's outside Bordentown a few weeks ago is any guide, the sports team allegiances remain firmly in the Philly camp. In fact, the very existence of a Chickie's and Pete's in this location, complete with bench advertising Union Roofing out front, says something about the cultural ties too.


Quote:
So what in your opinion would classify Reading as a "satellite city" of Philadelphia, but not Lancaster? Nearby York is only about 50 miles from downtown Baltimore, a straight run down 83. Never realized it was that close until I started venturing out to that area more. Would Allentown and Erie also be considered satellite cities then? Not necessarily of Philly and Pittsburgh since the former isn't much further from NYC either and the latter is also equidistant from Cleveland and Buffalo too.
I guess the distinction between Reading and all those other cities you list here is:

It seems to me that no one goes into Reading from the hinterlands surrounding it for work or much of anything else anymore. And the pattern of development from Montgomery County is heading up US 422 towards that city rather than outward from Reading towards Montgomery County. By contrast, I don't see anything similar working its way towards Allentown on PA 309. Development along US 30 is emanating east from Lancaster as much as it is west from Philadelphia's Main Line.

Maybe what I'm noticing is Reading's stagnation relative to those other cities more than its falling into another nearby city's orbit. The Lehigh Valley remains its own separate and distinct metropolitan area - and the flow of residents and commerce runs more east-west along I-78 than north-south along PA 309 or 611. If anything, that valley is tied to New York now more closely than it is to Philadelphia.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NYtoNJtoPA View Post
I have heard that Trenton historically has more of a tie to Philly than NY, but that definitely is not the case today, given that it is the state capital and North Jersey has way more influence on it than South Jersey. This is probably why they switched it. You can probably also make a case for extreme southwest Middlesex County - Plainsboro, Cranbury and parts of South Brunswick - since they tend to blend in with their Mercer neighbors, but a huge difference compared to Edison and Woodbridge obviously.



So what in your opinion would classify Reading as a "satellite city" of Philadelphia, but not Lancaster? Nearby York is only about 50 miles from downtown Baltimore, a straight run down 83. Never realized it was that close until I started venturing out to that area more. Would Allentown and Erie also be considered satellite cities then? Not necessarily of Philly and Pittsburgh since the former isn't much further from NYC either and the latter is also equidistant from Cleveland and Buffalo too.
Trenton being in the NYC CSA has nothing to do with North Jersey holding more sway over the state politics. It has everything to do with commuting flows. That’s how the Census does it. Certainly, NYC dictates NY state politics, but you don’t see Albany being put into its CSA. Same with PA and Philly as far as Harrisburg goes, although I would say Philly probably dominates PA’s state politics to a much lesser extent than NYC does for NY state.

Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton and the rest of the Lehigh Valley are in NYC CSA for this reason as well. More people commute to other parts of NYC CSA than Philly CSA. Lots of people work in North Jersey and crosses the bridge, obviously because of property taxes. But that’s the pull of NYC vs. Philly. NYC is about six times larger, so you should expect them to cast a wider net of influence. Even in Bucks County, there are probably a handful of towns that these days have more people commuting to North Jersey/NYC than Philly or other towns in Philly CSA. I’m specifically thinking about places like Yardley and New Hope. If they haven’t overtaken them yet, I’m sure it’s pretty close.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Center City
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Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton and the rest of the Lehigh Valley are in NYC CSA for this reason as well. More people commute to other parts of NYC CSA than Philly CSA. Lots of people work in North Jersey and crosses the bridge, obviously because of property taxes. But that’s the pull of NYC vs. Philly. NYC is about six times larger, so you should expect them to cast a wider net of influence.
Yes, but Philadelphia’s influence shouldn’t be discounted since Lehigh, Berks, and Northampton County’s fall under the Philadelphia Media Market. This extends through all of South Jersey, including Mercer County, as well. Where one gets their news has significant influence on their sense of urban connection.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Levittown
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
It was the state capital then too, and arguably North Jersey dominated the legislature then even more than it does now.

The Census Bureau usually bases the decision to put a county in a CSA or MSA based on commuting patterns.

It may well be that job growth in Middlesex especially has led more Greater Trentonians to commute to work in that adjacent county than to jobs in Burlington or the counties across the Delaware.

I can attest to this much: if the visit I made to a Chickie's and Pete's outside Bordentown a few weeks ago is any guide, the sports team allegiances remain firmly in the Philly camp. In fact, the very existence of a Chickie's and Pete's in this location, complete with bench advertising Union Roofing out front, says something about the cultural ties too.
I don't disagree. FTR, Bordentown is actually Burlington County while Hamilton immediately north of it is still Mercer. Hamilton is a town that has weathered many shifts over the years and was sporadically developed probably because of its size and proximity to highways and mass transit. The eastern part along Rt 130 has the newest development and seems to sprawl up into Robbinsville while the older areas further west tend to drift into Trenton, like an inner ring suburb. I've known a few people to commute north from Hamilton (including my sister), but not sure if I ever knew anyone to live there and commute south though I am sure there are people who do it. Bordentown contrarily seems a little more exclusive, but maybe that is just my perception since it is smaller and, driving south on 295, starts after you pass the "scenic overlook" by the Crosswicks Creek Marshes - it was like what people from North Jersey describe driving over the Driscoll Bridge as - though there are parts of it that extend further north than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I guess the distinction between Reading and all those other cities you list here is:

It seems to me that no one goes into Reading from the hinterlands surrounding it for work or much of anything else anymore. And the pattern of development from Montgomery County is heading up US 422 towards that city rather than outward from Reading towards Montgomery County. By contrast, I don't see anything similar working its way towards Allentown on PA 309. Development along US 30 is emanating east from Lancaster as much as it is west from Philadelphia's Main Line.

Maybe what I'm noticing is Reading's stagnation relative to those other cities more than its falling into another nearby city's orbit. The Lehigh Valley remains its own separate and distinct metropolitan area - and the flow of residents and commerce runs more east-west along I-78 than north-south along PA 309 or 611. If anything, that valley is tied to New York now more closely than it is to Philadelphia.
Coming from Jersey I can attest that a lot of people are leaving Jersey for Lehigh. I work up in that area sometimes and the NY accent is also more prevalent there than it is in Philly. But I've also heard it up in the Poconos too obviously. Considering that it is 60 miles north of Philly and 90 west of NYC, I guess the NYC influence is stronger because it is a bigger city even though the trip is longer by 30 miles. I also find it ironic that the adjacent parts of Jersey - Phillipsburg in particular - are quite depressed compared to what is just across the river. I guess everyone figured the PA state line is only a few miles further so they bypassed that whole Phillipsburg/Bloomsbury/Clinton area and jumped the state line to save on cost of living. They figured it is so close to PA they might as well go to PA. Maybe that explains why it is supposedly the fastest growing region in the state now.
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
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Originally Posted by Leps12 View Post
Trenton being in the NYC CSA has nothing to do with North Jersey holding more sway over the state politics. It has everything to do with commuting flows. That’s how the Census does it. Certainly, NYC dictates NY state politics, but you don’t see Albany being put into its CSA. Same with PA and Philly as far as Harrisburg goes, although I would say Philly probably dominates PA’s state politics to a much lesser extent than NYC does for NY state.

Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton and the rest of the Lehigh Valley are in NYC CSA for this reason as well. More people commute to other parts of NYC CSA than Philly CSA. Lots of people work in North Jersey and crosses the bridge, obviously because of property taxes. But that’s the pull of NYC vs. Philly. NYC is about six times larger, so you should expect them to cast a wider net of influence. Even in Bucks County, there are probably a handful of towns that these days have more people commuting to North Jersey/NYC than Philly or other towns in Philly CSA. I’m specifically thinking about places like Yardley and New Hope. If they haven’t overtaken them yet, I’m sure it’s pretty close.
Actually it's a little more complex than that. When the last Census released the commuter workflow stats for counties, it was shown that Burlington County had reached above the 15% CSA threshold which technically made Mercer County part of the Philly CSA but Mercer County also reaches the CSA threshold with the New York CSA. They were in a unique situation to where they got to choose which CSA they wanted to be in and Mercer County officials chose New York(most likely for financial reasons). From what I also remembered when looking at the stats was that Bucks County was close to reaching the CSA commuter requirements for Mercer County. It will be interesting to see what will happen when the next update is released. Philly was able to add 3 counties to its CSA(Atlantic, Cape May, Kent) during the last commuter statistics release. I think the Philly CSA will add even more in the near future.

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 06-14-2018 at 02:41 PM..
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