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Old 07-06-2018, 11:34 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,633,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
I appreciate all the history. It explains your skepticism. Hopefully this time will be different. The people of Camden deserve it.
The people of Camden County deserve for something to go right in Camden.

FYI, the Courier Post may or may not have information of interest for this thread. Once upon a time it was the Camden Courier Post. They moved to Cherry Hill decades ago.

My sister thinks that I'm unnecessarily optimistic about Camden. My thinking lines up more with my friend's.

The winning combination for restaurants in Camden might be breakfast, lunch, & catering, with summer happy hour as a possibility. Given the price of liquor licenses, they'd be more likely to last if they don't go that route. If they can figure out how to do an alcohol-free happy hour in the spring, summer, & fall, that might work. Insurance might be prohibitive if there is alcohol on the premises.
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,165 posts, read 6,745,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Collingswood has been pushing for inclusion for years. It's OK, but more often than not, Haddonfield is the go to place. Cherry Hill has a lot of places, too, but it's more disjointed.
Well, Haddonfield does have the chi-chi cachet, and Collingswood still doesn't have that. Nor will it ever, as far as I can tell - nor should it. It's its own community.

But I still remember my initial impression upon strolling down Haddon Avenue in Collingswood in 1984: "This is a poor man's Haddonfield," I said to myself.

I wouldn't use that phrase to describe Haddon Avenue in Collingswood today. It's like Media in having cleared the cobwebs out of its Main Street, brought in a bunch of new businesses (and residents, in Collingswood's case), and turned a sleepy business district into a lively one. I think that deserves recognition. (Yes, I have visited Collingswood since the transformation, and I'm about to go there again because I plan on making it the focus of my second suburban community profile for the print mag. It'll run in the September issue.)

Haddonfield certainly doesn't have a farmers' market on the scale of Collingswood's, which I heard about before Collingswood became cool.

Cherry Hill's too autocentric to ever develop Main Streets like those in Haddonfield or Collingswood. Absent some sort of Instant Urbanist project. The Garden State Park site offered that opportunity, but they botched it in planning the various elements that would go onto it. (By contrast, the Village at Valley Forge in King of Prussia gets the form wrong but the function absolutely right.)
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Center City
7,532 posts, read 9,613,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
The people of Camden County deserve for something to go right in Camden.

FYI, the Courier Post may or may not have information of interest for this thread. Once upon a time it was the Camden Courier Post. They moved to Cherry Hill decades ago.

My sister thinks that I'm unnecessarily optimistic about Camden. My thinking lines up more with my friend's.

The winning combination for restaurants in Camden might be breakfast, lunch, & catering, with summer happy hour as a possibility. Given the price of liquor licenses, they'd be more likely to last if they don't go that route. If they can figure out how to do an alcohol-free happy hour in the spring, summer, & fall, that might work. Insurance might be prohibitive if there is alcohol on the premises.
The article I posted refers to a beer garden that is scheduled to open August 1:

”His [Damon Pennington] first project? A “pop-up” beer garden set to open Aug. 1 at the now-empty 317 Market lot. The pop-up, he said, will mix art, drinking, and an “Instagrammable” atmosphere. Named the Camden Arts Yard, it will be open until November directly adjacent to Pennington’s soon-to-open restaurant, 315 Signature.”

This seems like a reasonable test for the viability of any after-hours business in Camden. If the younger workers are willing to hang out in Camden for a happy hour rather than decamp to Philly or a more polished NJ town after work, then perhaps there is hope for businesses with four walls to take root.

BTW, what is an “alcohol-free happy hour”? I want to know just in case I don’t go to one by mistake.
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:50 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,633,739 times
Reputation: 10247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
The article I posted refers to a beer garden that is scheduled to open August 1:

”His [Damon Pennington] first project? A “pop-up” beer garden set to open Aug. 1 at the now-empty 317 Market lot. The pop-up, he said, will mix art, drinking, and an “Instagrammable” atmosphere. Named the Camden Arts Yard, it will be open until November directly adjacent to Pennington’s soon-to-open restaurant, 315 Signature.”

This seems like a reasonable test for the viability of any after-hours business in Camden. If the younger workers are willing to hang out in Camden for a happy hour rather than decamp to Philly or a more polished NJ town after work, then perhaps there is hope for businesses with four walls to take root.

BTW, what is an “alcohol-free happy hour”? I want to know just in case I don’t go to one by mistake.
I would assume that an alcohol-free happy hour just wouldn't have alcohol, but would have ice teas, coffees, etc.

I suggest that you read up on NJ liquor licenses. Considering the staggering cost of the liquor licenses & the likelihood of break ins to steal liquor I suspect that you'd need very deep pockets. A lot of the later store closures in Camden were caused by sky-high insurance, because of chronic robberies.

I'd try a restaurant first. If it works out I'd look at the feasibility of a liquor license.
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:52 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,633,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Well, Haddonfield does have the chi-chi cachet, and Collingswood still doesn't have that. Nor will it ever, as far as I can tell - nor should it. It's its own community.

But I still remember my initial impression upon strolling down Haddon Avenue in Collingswood in 1984: "This is a poor man's Haddonfield," I said to myself.

I wouldn't use that phrase to describe Haddon Avenue in Collingswood today. It's like Media in having cleared the cobwebs out of its Main Street, brought in a bunch of new businesses (and residents, in Collingswood's case), and turned a sleepy business district into a lively one. I think that deserves recognition. (Yes, I have visited Collingswood since the transformation, and I'm about to go there again because I plan on making it the focus of my second suburban community profile for the print mag. It'll run in the September issue.)

Haddonfield certainly doesn't have a farmers' market on the scale of Collingswood's, which I heard about before Collingswood became cool.

Cherry Hill's too autocentric to ever develop Main Streets like those in Haddonfield or Collingswood. Absent some sort of Instant Urbanist project. The Garden State Park site offered that opportunity, but they botched it in planning the various elements that would go onto it. (By contrast, the Village at Valley Forge in King of Prussia gets the form wrong but the function absolutely right.)
Cherry Hill is an odd duck. I've always said that it's semi-walkable. It was developed one farm sale at a time. It consists of clusters. We were furious about the mess that was built where Garden State Park once stood. If Susan Bass Levin had stayed as mayor for another term, it would have been done right.

With the current restaurant idea, I see the same mistake that's happened over & over. It's taking an idea & trying to make it happen right away. Unless this guy is independently wealthy, that's a red flag. Liquor licenses are incredibly expensive. Then there's the history of break ins where there's liquor, in Camden. I'd worry about making sure that the restaurant works, then consider adding alcohol. Having drinks in glasses available would be novelty enough. The only thing available for at least 20 years has been a truck that parks by the Hall of Justice. I don't think that this guy realizes that a place to sit down & drink a glass of lemonade, iced tea, or iced coffee would be as big a novelty in Camden as a beer garden, without the upfront expense of a liquor license. After all, people are used to that. Haddonfield & Collingswood are both dry.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,165 posts, read 6,745,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Haddonfield & Collingswood are both dry.
Haddonfield is dry no more. Yes, it's only beer, and they don't have a restaurant, but it's a crack in the wall:

Kings Road Brewing Company

They do let you buy beer there and take it with you to one of the nearby restaurants.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:03 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,633,739 times
Reputation: 10247
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Haddonfield is dry no more. Yes, it's only beer, and they don't have a restaurant, but it's a crack in the wall:

Kings Road Brewing Company

They do let you buy beer there and take it with you to one of the nearby restaurants.
The Haddonfield restaurants have been BYOB as long as I can remember. I've never been aware of the details behind Haddonfield being dry, but a thread on the South Jersey board hashed over & then rehashed the situation with Collingswood.

This situation doesn't mean that Haddonfield is wet. It's a gray area. It will end up in court at some point.
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Old 03-20-2021, 07:37 PM
 
593 posts, read 498,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanis149 View Post
Reading IS awful but it's no edge city of Philly. Wilmington is debateble depending on how far you put the metro as. I think of it as: Philadelphia, Delaware, Bucks, Montgomery, Chester counties in PA and Camden, Gloucester, Burlington, Salem, and Cumberland Counties in NJ. Some people put the metro as far as Cecil county, MD.

But that's just how I think of it

I think Norristown would also fit in this lost of poverty edge cities. Levitown almost became an edge city.
Reading is rundown, but I wouldn't call it awful. Camden was awful during the '70's to much of last decade until things turned around. Wilmington has the better economy due to banking, credit cards, and Dupont. My personal favorite city, however is Allentown. I'm impressed with how they turned around the city, even though the city had corruption with Pawlowski, who wasn't really a bad mayor bout got his hands caught in the cookie jar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leps12 View Post
Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton and the rest of the Lehigh Valley are in NYC CSA for this reason as well. More people commute to other parts of NYC CSA than Philly CSA. Lots of people work in North Jersey and crosses the bridge, obviously because of property taxes. But that’s the pull of NYC vs. Philly. NYC is about six times larger, so you should expect them to cast a wider net of influence. Even in Bucks County, there are probably a handful of towns that these days have more people commuting to North Jersey/NYC than Philly or other towns in Philly CSA. I’m specifically thinking about places like Yardley and New Hope. If they haven’t overtaken them yet, I’m sure it’s pretty close.
Albeit this this 3 years old, the Lehigh Valley isn't a part of the NYC CSA, the Lehigh Valley is it's own MSA. It's not a part of NY nor is it a part of Philadelphia, it's independent of those two cities, albeit the Lehigh Valley is a part of PA, it get's Philadelphia TV stations, and it's 60 miles from Philadelphia to Allentown, as opposed to 91 miles from NYC to Allentown. Allentown reminds me of a smaller version of Phila than it does NYC, except you have a Latino majority and a smaller white and and even smaller but present and spread out black population. Yes, NYC is a more attractive place due to the money and it's size, but for right now it's better that the Lehigh Valley remain it's own area than becoming another node for NYC.
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Old 03-20-2021, 08:08 PM
 
593 posts, read 498,974 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Cherry Hill is an odd duck. I've always said that it's semi-walkable. It was developed one farm sale at a time. It consists of clusters. We were furious about the mess that was built where Garden State Park once stood. If Susan Bass Levin had stayed as mayor for another term, it would have been done right.

With the current restaurant idea, I see the same mistake that's happened over & over. It's taking an idea & trying to make it happen right away. Unless this guy is independently wealthy, that's a red flag. Liquor licenses are incredibly expensive. Then there's the history of break ins where there's liquor, in Camden. I'd worry about making sure that the restaurant works, then consider adding alcohol. Having drinks in glasses available would be novelty enough. The only thing available for at least 20 years has been a truck that parks by the Hall of Justice. I don't think that this guy realizes that a place to sit down & drink a glass of lemonade, iced tea, or iced coffee would be as big a novelty in Camden as a beer garden, without the upfront expense of a liquor license. After all, people are used to that. Haddonfield & Collingswood are both dry.
Don't know who Levin is, but Cherry Hill is suburbia. Many people from Camden and Philadelphia went to Cherry Hill just to escape the city and live a more serene atmosphere in the 60's and the 70's. Nowadays, it's not growing but only because of taxes and the local and regional economy. Garden State Park is gone and in it's place is Garden State Pavillions, a shopping center and Cherry Hill Mall is it's strong selling point.
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
31,607 posts, read 32,795,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Don't know who Levin is, but Cherry Hill is suburbia. Many people from Camden and Philadelphia went to Cherry Hill just to escape the city and live a more serene atmosphere in the 60's and the 70's. Nowadays, it's not growing but only because of taxes and the local and regional economy. Garden State Park is gone and in it's place is Garden State Pavillions, a shopping center and Cherry Hill Mall is it's strong selling point.
She was the mayor. I'm surprised that she wanted the job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Bass_Levin

Garden State Park was supposed to be developed into the Main Street that Cherry Hill never had. That obviously didn't happen. Garden State Pavilions is up the road.

I think that their strong point is that they have saved historic buildings, have parks and a few quiet places to walk, and a not terribly old covered bridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarborough_Bridge

The southjerseytrails.org guy has found all of the trails.
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