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Old 09-05-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,637,573 times
Reputation: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
This isn't about their obligation, it's about the ranking qualification. I dont think there is an obligation to the weaker students. It is a charter school. They only accept kids that are academic achievers. They only accept kids that will increase their rankings and reject kids that will most likely DECREASE their rankings. That is the conflict of interest.
How is it a conflict of interest ? My understanding is that a conflict of interest occurs when someone has an incentive that is contrary to their ethical obligations. I don't see how such a thing exists here.

btw, it is a magnet school, not a charter school. As far as I know, Charter schools are not included in the rankings (and they're not allowed to cherry pick)

Quote:
When a dumb kid or an underachiever moves into town, the school is required to take him or her, so it is a lot more impressive when a school like that is ranked highly than a school that can pick the 100 brightest in a pool of 10,000 students.
We don't know which one is more impressive, because we don't know the scores of the incoming class. The incoming class at McNair might not be that much better on average than the incoming class at Millburn high. If they did, as I suggested, make public the academic performance of the incoming class, this question would be put to rest. As it is, your guess is as good as mine and vice-versa.

Quote:
And most importantly, if I am choosing a town based on education, I'm going to move to Summit before moving to Jersey city
Seriously, how many people who are seriously considering Summit would also seriously considering Jersey City ? The purpose of the Magnet school in Jersey City or Newark isn't to compete with Summit, Millburn, or Chatham, it's to avoid having bright kids from those towns stuck in environments that aren't conducive to helping them realize their potential.

If you can buy your kid a spot in the best school, that's great, but eventually, there must be winners and losers in this auction.
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
4,019 posts, read 4,514,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
How is it a conflict of interest ? My understanding is that a conflict of interest occurs when someone has an incentive that is contrary to their ethical obligations. I don't see how such a thing exists here.
I thought we covered this. It is not their ethical obligations to the students or neighborhood, but to the competition in rankings. It may even be to the students as well, if their potential rankings actually play a part in deciding who to accept or exclude, but that is not necessarily what I was speaking of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
btw, it is a magnet school, not a charter school. As far as I know, Charter schools are not included in the rankings (and they're not allowed to cherry pick)
Thanks for the distinction.



Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
We don't know which one is more impressive, because we don't know the scores of the incoming class. The incoming class at McNair might not be that much better on average than the incoming class at Millburn high. If they did, as I suggested, make public the academic performance of the incoming class, this question would be put to rest. As it is, your guess is as good as mine and vice-versa.
I dont think it is better on average than the incoming class in Millburn, but you are still comparing apples to oranges because the vast majority of people entering Millburn High come from a Millburn middle and elementary school. There is a set standard that the town upholds. Everyone is on a level playing field. In Jersey City, there are some schools where merely NOT being a gang banger and putting in minimal effort can get you straight "A"s, and other schools that are not that bad and actually require WORK to get the same grades. Transparency is always good, but I dont know if it will necessarily yield the results you are looking for.



Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
Seriously, how many people who are seriously considering Summit would also seriously considering Jersey City ?
In an ideal world, I would be. I was speaking theoretically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
The purpose of the Magnet school in Jersey City or Newark isn't to compete with Summit, Millburn, or Chatham, it's to avoid having bright kids from those towns stuck in environments that aren't conducive to helping them realize their potential.
This is my point! So why have them compete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
If you can buy your kid a spot in the best school, that's great, but eventually, there must be winners and losers in this auction.
There will be more rich auction winners than poor ones, and it has nothing to do with intelligence. If you buy the right schools, then you buy the right friends, who give you the right connections to the right jobs. You dont have to be a genius to do well...unless you are poor.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,637,573 times
Reputation: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
I thought we covered this. It is not their ethical obligations to the students or neighborhood, but to the competition in rankings.
The schools have no obligation to those who write the rankings, and certainly not to those who compete with them in the rankings. It is those who provide the rankings who have some obligation to design a rankings system that isn't easy to game.

I don't believe having a magnet school in a poor district is gaming the ratings, because even if McNair finishes at the top, I don't really believe people will move from Short Hills to Jersey City so their kids can attend (even assuming their kids are good enough to get into McNair)

Quote:
In Jersey City, there are some schools where merely NOT being a gang banger and putting in minimal effort can get you straight "A"s, and other schools that are not that bad and actually require WORK to get the same grades.
Any selective admissions system needs to address this problem. Suffice it to say, the problem is well understood, and there are effective ways of dealing with it. In particular, it is well known by those who deal with admissions that standardized test results need to be used in conjunction with grades assigned by the school.

Quote:
This is my point! So why have them compete?
Because it's simpler for NJ monthly to have a single list of rankings. You could also reasonably ask, why bother including South Jersey schools in the same list as North Jersey schools ?

Also, parents of students at McNair might want to know how their school stacks up against other schools, even if they don't have the means to send their kids there.

Quote:
There will be more rich auction winners than poor ones, and it has nothing to do with intelligence. If you buy the right schools, then you buy the right friends, who give you the right connections to the right jobs. You dont have to be a genius to do well...unless you are poor.
Alternatively, the kid could earn it for themselves instead of their parents buying everything for them. Connections only go so far. Unless you have a privately owned family business, there isn't much room for free riders.

You'd know this better than I, so I'm curious -- do people get into and through med school on connections alone ? That is, do you get people who are basically of average ability and can still get medical degrees because their mummy and daddy bribed the right people ? I would have though that medicine was sufficiently demanding as to be difficult for incompetents (even well connected incompetents) to last long.

In my line of work (quantitative finance), you simply won't be able to do any useful work unless you are fairly gifted in math and programming. If you were to interview for my job, the interviewers would want to know how smart you are, and they are smart enough to find out fairly quickly. If you're as dumb as a pile of rocks, they won't hire you regardless of your connections.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:05 PM
 
7 posts, read 18,190 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post

There will be more rich auction winners than poor ones, and it has nothing to do with intelligence. If you buy the right schools, then you buy the right friends, who give you the right connections to the right jobs. You dont have to be a genius to do well...unless you are poor.
Anesthesia, the point I just quoted from you above is in my opinion the Most Critical, yet, the Biggest KEY FACTOR that Millions upon Millions of middle class parents & even some upper middle class parents Totally "miss" or do not really comprehend.

Its the FORMULA that 95% of Affluent parents ( the top 3% in the country) UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY. It is one that maybe about 30% of today's upper middle class parents, and ONLY about 10%-15% of middle class and working class parents really comprehend completely.

You see it even here in City-data forums in pretty big numbers. Its an exact reflection of the ratios that you would see offline & in mainstreet america among the majority of the middle class and even a large portion of today's upper middle class. (my typical definition of upper middle class parents who are 1st generation in terms of making a household 6 figure income of say 150K, 175K, evIen 200K in NJ by moving up the corporate managerial level or jobs that pay good due to their skills.Most joint incomes, some solo incomes)

Its the FORMULA that has worked for decades, and generations of yesterday's, today, and tomorrow's wealthy americans. Its an
'UNWRITTEN RULE that has always been UNDERSTOOD, PRACTICED, FOLLOWED, and AIMED for by those who ASPIRE for their kids to hopefully Get to the Highest Levels of success in society. One that those on TOP have ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD & have taken advantage of. While the Next Generation of Leaders & Success Stories who understand this are FOLLOWING the same path.

$$$$= ACCESS TO "5 STAR SCHOOLS" = 1) LIFETIME NETWORKING/FRIENDSHIP with today & tomorrow's Leaders/Wealthy AND
2) Stronger Probability/Increased Odds of Getting into Tier 1 University/College = Larger odds of FINANCIAL SUCCESS for motivated person ( Who will have the TOP EDUCATION complete with NAME BRAND, POWERFUL NETWORK of FUTURE INDUSTRY LEADERS)

This is ONE POINT is one that millions of parents, PARTICULARLY Lower, Middle & even Upper Middle class parents Do Not Fully Understand the Power, the Significance, and the BIG PICTURE !!!

There are lots of Excuses, Lots of feel good justification for those who CANNOT afford, even a good number of sour graping, even some contempt against those who can afford or who are doing everything to follow the path despite big financial challenges.

The common excuse/story/feel good justification/argument/ you hear are:

" I know of this kid, that kid, this friend, that friend, who went to Millburn, Mountain Lakes, Tenafly, Chatham, New Providence, etc etc etc WHO ARE NOT DOING THAT WELL TODAY, WHO ARE JUST LIKE ME FINANCIALLY".

Folks- since when did LIFE have ANY GUARANTEES ? Since when did a School, a company, , a Church, a Religion have PERFECT, even NEAR PERFECT, EVEN 90% SUCCESS RATES of its employees, students or congregants and parishioners ?????

All I will say is this...... If a wealthy town with a Very Good school district like Millburn, or Ridgewood, or Mountain lakes produces ONLY 70%,60%, even 50% of new jersey's & america's Future Leaders, VP's, Successful Business Owners, Millionaires, Politicians, CEO's............

Can you IMAGINE the SUCCESS RATE from ALL THESE OTHER TOWNS with " Less Wealthy & Less educated parents, Less quality teachers, less enrichment programs & less competitive environment of students, less productive activitives, and Less College Educated Parent role models????

Folks, I think any normal person with normal intelligence will agree that
Wealthy people very likely have More or higher education than the rest of the population. Wealthy people very likely UNDERSTAND how to INVEST their MONEY, PROTECT their MONEY, and UNDERSTAND their TAXES more, much more than the rest of the population. Wealthy people very likely LIVE or PREFER to live ( and can AFFORD TO LIVE in) a Safe, Nice, Good public school towns compared to the rest of the population.

Is that as fair statement? Or shall we again mention this person or that person, or this guy who has less education or lives in a bad town but is wealthy. Folks, there will ALWAYS BE EXCEPTIONS FOREVER !!!!

Jersey City, Newark, Paterson, Trenton WILL ALL PRODUCE hundreds if not thousands of succesful people someday. Some will even be CEO's someday.

Just as Morris Community College, Hudson Community College, etc. WILL have their share of Amazing success stories from its graduates someday.

We all know that !!!! There are people in life who WILL DO well & prove the world wrong no matter what circumstance they were born with.

The ONLY PROBLEM with this mentality is.....

If you are a parent, the ONLY THING You can do for your 5 year old, 10 year old, 14 year old is to INCREASE HIS ODDS, INCREASE HIS CHANCES OF SUCCESS SOMEDAY ! ( parent support with school work is ALREADY a GIVEN ! That's a MINIMUM requirement from any RESPONSIBLE parent whether in Jersey City or Mendham, from Paterson or basking ridge )

That Folks is WHERE SCHOOL & ENVIRONMENT COME INTO PLAY !!!!

No one, I repeat, No one is saying that a kid from Perth Amboy or Dunnellen will NOT be successful nor is anyone saying that a kid from Millburn, Livingston, of Westfield is GUARANTEED Success!

Nobody!!!

A big HOWEVER, life is & will always be about odds.

You are a Parent: YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS as a Homebuyer....

If you are a parent who CAN AFFORD to send your KID to a # 1, # 3, # 10, #15 Top ranked school district BUT will have to SACRIFICE a smaller, older home to do that ( even higher taxes in some cases)

Versus

Buying a home in a # 75, #88 or #125 ranked school district BUT you get a Much Newer & Bigger Home and actually impress your friends & family....
( Mind you,the #75,#88, even #125 is likely a decent, nice, suburban town that will still produce a good education )


THAT FOLKS is REALLY the CHOICE !!!! ITS A VERY PERSONAL DECISION !! There is NO WRONG or RIGHT!!!!

All the other noise is pure justification, excuse, reinforcement of decision, even GUILT in some cases.


P.S. Something to think about ....

Are you aware that in EVERY Single Top ranked public school district from Millburn, Glen Ridge, Mountain lakes to Chatham, New Providence, etc etc

there are thousands of Middle income, Upper Middle income & Wealthy parents who DESPITE of the Top rankings, SEND THEIR KIDS to the VERY BEST PRIVATE SCHOOLS in New Jersey such as Pingry, Hun School, Fra Brook, Kent Place, Delbarton, Oak Knoll, Morristown Beard ????

WHY ???? For 90% of these parents, they believe that these private schools gives their Children an even BETTER chance of success!!!!

So we have EXTREMES in thousands of cases. Parents who will SACRIFICE EVERYTHING for the SAKE of education & a better chance of their child, while there are others who will JUSTIFY their thinking as " I know this kid from Pingry, I know this child from Millburn, I know this kid from Kent Place, I know this kid from tenafly WHO DID NOT REALLY REACH TOO MUCH SUCCESS as an adult.

i say, can you just imagine if they went to some so so school ???
I say, Ill bet $ 1000 dollars that there are MUCH HIGHER SUCCESS rates in Millburn than some #95 or #115 ranked school.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:21 PM
 
7 posts, read 18,190 times
Reputation: 22
Addendum:

Folks, 80% of NJ parents will never be able to send their kids to the top 25 school districts in NJ nor any of the elite private schools in NJ. That's 100% acceptable & is reality. Absolutely NOTHING WRONG with that. After all, hundreds of thousands of kids from the 275 other NJ schools will someday do good, well even exceptionally well in their career & life.

But to try and PRETEND, sometimes outright IGNORE the "reality" that Top Public & Private high schools, Top Ivy Colleges & Top Tier Non-Ivy Colleges WILL GIVE MAJORITY OF KIDS an 'EDGE, a VALUABLE TOOL, in many cases an outright ADVANTAGE in the future whether because of ..... Networking, Name brand, quality of education, Bias in favor of Top schools, the pull by Alumni, the Pull by guidance counselors for college acceptance, etcet etce etc IS NOT FACING the REALITY of our society & its workings.

In virtually ALL industries, private & public, even in politics & government- the MAJORITY people in DECISION MAKING POSITIONS yesterday, today & tomorrow have & will continue to come from these institution
From Wall Street & banking, to Congress, the Presidency, the Supreme Court, to Pharmaceutical, Airlines, Shipping, Auto, - YOU WILL FIND a VERY STRONG PRESENCE in the PAST, PRESENT & FUTURE of leaders coming from Top Educational Institutions.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:38 AM
PDD
 
5,783 posts, read 5,603,332 times
Reputation: 6372
Quote:
Originally Posted by UCBerkley85 View Post
Addendum:

Folks, 80% of NJ parents will never be able to send their kids to the top 25 school districts in NJ nor any of the elite private schools in NJ. That's 100% acceptable & is reality. Absolutely NOTHING WRONG with that. After all, hundreds of thousands of kids from the 275 other NJ schools will someday do good, well even exceptionally well in their career & life.

But to try and PRETEND, sometimes outright IGNORE the "reality" that Top Public & Private high schools, Top Ivy Colleges & Top Tier Non-Ivy Colleges WILL GIVE MAJORITY OF KIDS an 'EDGE, a VALUABLE TOOL, in many cases an outright ADVANTAGE in the future whether because of ..... Networking, Name brand, quality of education, Bias in favor of Top schools, the pull by Alumni, the Pull by guidance counselors for college acceptance, etcet etce etc IS NOT FACING the REALITY of our society & its workings.

In virtually ALL industries, private & public, even in politics & government- the MAJORITY people in DECISION MAKING POSITIONS yesterday, today & tomorrow have & will continue to come from these institution
From Wall Street & banking, to Congress, the Presidency, the Supreme Court, to Pharmaceutical, Airlines, Shipping, Auto, - YOU WILL FIND a VERY STRONG PRESENCE in the PAST, PRESENT & FUTURE of leaders coming from Top Educational Institutions.
Why are you yelling? Most here do understand your point of view. Is that what they taught you at the premium schools? Talk loud and they will believe you.
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
4,019 posts, read 4,514,505 times
Reputation: 2793
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
In my line of work (quantitative finance), you simply won't be able to do any useful work unless you are fairly gifted in math and programming. If you were to interview for my job, the interviewers would want to know how smart you are, and they are smart enough to find out fairly quickly. If you're as dumb as a pile of rocks, they won't hire you regardless of your connections.
No, you wont pass the medical boards with connections and no brains, but you can make a lot more money on Wall Street without being particularly smart or talented. I have many friends and relatives there now, so I know the game pretty well. Most of these guys didn't even go to graduate school, but in our circle of friends, if you want to work on Wall St, there is a spot for you. Hell, 2 of my friends have offered me consulting jobs with starting pay that is more money than I am making now, after 10 years of practice. I dont know the first thing about consulting, but I'm sure I could learn. A close relative of mine was a ski instructor in Aspen after graduating Maryland (in the middle of his class). He got a call from a friend, and 2 years later, he is making seven figures in NYC. Lets not pretend that you have to be some brilliant person to make a lot of money. Anyone with average intelligence and good connections will do well. I dont think it is right, but it is the real world.
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
4,019 posts, read 4,514,505 times
Reputation: 2793
Quote:
Originally Posted by UCBerkley85 View Post
Addendum:

Folks, 80% of NJ parents will never be able to send their kids to the top 25 school districts in NJ nor any of the elite private schools in NJ. That's 100% acceptable & is reality. Absolutely NOTHING WRONG with that. After all, hundreds of thousands of kids from the 275 other NJ schools will someday do good, well even exceptionally well in their career & life.

But to try and PRETEND, sometimes outright IGNORE the "reality" that Top Public & Private high schools, Top Ivy Colleges & Top Tier Non-Ivy Colleges WILL GIVE MAJORITY OF KIDS an 'EDGE, a VALUABLE TOOL, in many cases an outright ADVANTAGE in the future whether because of ..... Networking, Name brand, quality of education, Bias in favor of Top schools, the pull by Alumni, the Pull by guidance counselors for college acceptance, etcet etce etc IS NOT FACING the REALITY of our society & its workings.

In virtually ALL industries, private & public, even in politics & government- the MAJORITY people in DECISION MAKING POSITIONS yesterday, today & tomorrow have & will continue to come from these institution
From Wall Street & banking, to Congress, the Presidency, the Supreme Court, to Pharmaceutical, Airlines, Shipping, Auto, - YOU WILL FIND a VERY STRONG PRESENCE in the PAST, PRESENT & FUTURE of leaders coming from Top Educational Institutions.
I agree. I was brought up, and my parents were brought up believing that education is the most important thing you can give your child. That if your child can get into Princeton or Harvard that you beg, borrow, and steal to get them there. When I hear some of the people on here say things like "I cant afford to send my kids to an Ivy League school," it just blows me away. To me, short of robbery and murder, you do whatever you have to to get that tuition money.
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:50 AM
 
131 posts, read 253,517 times
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My point exactly about the finance industry...nobody went to Ivy league or graduate school...heck a few dropped out of school and are making 6 figures because of connections...but the connections had nothing to do with being connected to someone who went to brand name schools/Ivy league. I feel that connections you need today are not so much related to Brand name/Ivy league. (In certain Industries).
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:03 AM
 
131 posts, read 253,517 times
Reputation: 109
I also think success to one person might be different from another person. My definition of success is being more than comfortable financially despite how you got there.(degree or no degree) There are also many Ivy league graduates that become teachers, not making loads of money, but decent, and live modestly. That is being successful as well.......But I would be so angry with my kid if I sent them to an Ivy League school and they chose a profession (like Art, History, psychology) that did not pay well financially....to me that is a waste of money!!!!
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