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It's the school system that is the biggest mack-daddy draw....more than anything else. I really think there are other towns on the train line that are more attractive but it's the school that draws.....
MommaBear2Cubs,
I read your posts about Millburn schools and I agree with you in general about providing the kids with the best school. In fact, that's my mother's philosophy.
But are the Millburn schools really that good or just because of the competitiveness of the students? My school district is among the "top 10", however, I am not impressed. For example, I observed my 4th grader in class. The discussion was to determine the hardness of the minerals, the teacher was reading the answers out of her notes in the discussion. She has been with the school for a few years. I am thinking to send her to a private school. But based on what you said, I may as well move to Millburn. (as an aside, I set out to look for private school for my sped ed kid, but found out that my regular ed kid can greatly benefit in the right private school setting.)
Is setting up shop in a town that is prohibitively expensive for most families, and only allowing its residents to attend not also "cherry picking" ?
PS Ikb: njmonthly do include McNair. You don't need to look very far down the list to find it (usually 1 or 2) ...
Because you are ranking based on academics, and if you are a school that ONLY takes students who have proven themselves academically, you have a huge advantage over other schools who's students merely have to live in the town. You talk of towns that are prohibitively expensive, but money cant buy intelligence. Believe me on this one. Also, even in the "J" school districts, you still have plenty of middle class families. Look at the MSMLS listings. Even expensive town have homes in the 3-5 hundred thousand range. Not poor, but far from rich. I bet if large towns that already have top school districts were able to put all the best students in one school and exclude the poor students, they would outrank ALL the top ten schools. Of course, it would be at the expense of the other schools in town.
Because you are ranking based on academics, and if you are a school that ONLY takes students who have proven themselves academically, you have a huge advantage over other schools who's students merely have to live in the town.
Yes, but these magnet schools are usually in A districts.
But this all seems somewhat beside the point, because it is the schools that are being ranked, not how "fair" or "unfair" their "advantage" is.
I don't completely buy your objection -- it's true that you could have a few middle class families living for example in townhouses in Summit, and some may have bought pre-bubble. However, for each middle class person who can buy into Summit, some blue collar families can buy into South Orange, Nutley, etc.
So while it's not completely black and white, you have higher incomes in the more expensive towns.
Same with money "buying" intelligence. On average, the kids from the higher income families are smarter, and it is after all averages that are being reported.
Perhaps your objection is based on the notion that you would like the actual schools to be ranked instead of the rankings effectively being a ranking of the student populations ? This certainly seems like a reasonable objection, but I don't think excluding magnet schools from the rankings really addresses the problem. I'm pretty sure that the incoming students at Millburn beat the incoming students at the weaker schools by a comparable margin to the outgoing classes.
If they really wanted the results to be useful, they should at least use the scores of the incoming class as a baseline.
Last edited by elflord1973; 09-05-2010 at 08:28 AM..
I merely think that a school that is able to deny acceptance to kids that may lower their ranking creates a conflict of interest. In that case, you may as well add the private schools to the rankings.
I merely think that a school that is able to deny acceptance to kids that may lower their ranking creates a conflict of interest. In that case, you may as well add the private schools to the rankings.
I believe the reason private schools are not in the rankings is that they generally aren't obliged to, and don't report the required data.
I don't see a problem with including private schools in the rankings. It would certainly be helpful to those considering sending their children to private schools as it would provide some transparency.
I can see why the private schools might prefer not to be in the rankings -- if it turned out that they weren't able to beat the good public schools, or lord forbid, a magnet school (McNair) in Jersey City, it might not be good PR.
I believe other publications (not nj monthly) have attempted to come up with rankings that include private schools, but lack of transparency makes it difficult.
Can I assume you agree with the conflict of interest? I have a feeling, if you didn't, you would have let me know.
No, I don't agree. I just didn't think it was worth the trouble of arguing about.
Perhaps you could explain what the conflict of interest is. In particular, explain what ethical obligation is likely to be subverted by rejecting weak students.
Note that the "obligation", if you believe one exists, to take all comers, is already subverted by having selective admissions (indeed, it is also subverted by creating exclusionary "school districts"). But that's obvious, so I believe you have a more subtle argument that I hadn't considered.
MommaBear2Cubs,
I read your posts about Millburn schools and I agree with you in general about providing the kids with the best school. In fact, that's my mother's philosophy.
But are the Millburn schools really that good or just because of the competitiveness of the students? My school district is among the "top 10", however, I am not impressed. For example, I observed my 4th grader in class. The discussion was to determine the hardness of the minerals, the teacher was reading the answers out of her notes in the discussion. She has been with the school for a few years. I am thinking to send her to a private school. But based on what you said, I may as well move to Millburn. (as an aside, I set out to look for private school for my sped ed kid, but found out that my regular ed kid can greatly benefit in the right private school setting.)
You know what--that is a really good question and I don't know if I have a good answer. We shopped around prior to moving here and I am not sure I know one way or the other. I think the schools here "deliver" but I am not sure if it's the right place for my kids (especially one of them) due to how competitive it is.... I think--for us--the jury is still out. We moved to this town because my sister lives here and I wanted to be close with her but I am still wondering if we made the right move (in terms of the high level of competition.)
I will say--and I can say this in excellent conscience--that so far, my experiences (and that of our nieces) have been really strong teachers. However, the curriculum and approach are that of a public school. Not all that creative. Still--so far, I have not had a single teacher that I was not very impressed with--but I wish I could see more creativity in the curriculum.
My strong suggestion is to "shop around"--go and tour schools and see what is the best fit for your kids. I think there is something to be said for private schools and what they offer--especially alternative education type schools where the emphasis is more on the kid vs. performance.
I think too that there is a huge difference between what I want/ crave in elementary vs high school. While the elementary schools in Millburn are good, I think the real "machine" is the high school.
As for special ed, I do think Millburn has a pretty strong special ed program but again, I'd suggest (if you have the time) that you tour a few schools--private and public--and see how your feel.
It's a hard question and I believe in the end, it really boils down to specifics relative to your family....
Perhaps you could explain what the conflict of interest is. In particular, explain what ethical obligation is likely to be subverted by rejecting weak students.
Note that the "obligation", if you believe one exists, to take all comers, is already subverted by having selective admissions (indeed, it is also subverted by creating exclusionary "school districts"). But that's obvious, so I believe you have a more subtle argument that I hadn't considered.
This isn't about their obligation, it's about the ranking qualification. I dont think there is an obligation to the weaker students. It is a charter school. They only accept kids that are academic achievers. They only accept kids that will increase their rankings and reject kids that will most likely DECREASE their rankings. That is the conflict of interest. It is direct, not peripheral in a round about sort of way like your example of rich kids being smarter than poor kids and poor kids cant afford this or that district, blah, blah. Summit High School doesn't have that option. When a dumb kid or an underachiever moves into town, the school is required to take him or her, so it is a lot more impressive when a school like that is ranked highly than a school that can pick the 100 brightest in a pool of 10,000 students. And most importantly, if I am choosing a town based on education, I'm going to move to Summit before moving to Jersey city because my kids may not get accepted to McNair, while if I move to Summit, my kids are guaranteed a spot in the Summit school system.
Personally, I dont really care too much one way or the other, but if I did, I would just ignore the charter schools on the list as if they weren't even there.
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