The Worst Places To Live In NJ? (Newark, Paterson: middle-class, rental)

[syncmaster]

Originally Posted by ambernoble

Old Bridge, Monroe, Sayreville, East Brunswick and South Amboy.

The only thing those Middlesex County towns have in common is that they're all next to each other.


This wouldn't just happen to be the area you specialize in, would it?

Because if that's the only reason you talk up these towns at the expense of others, well.. that would be dishonest

For example, within Middlesex County I'd not rank Sayreville and South Amboy in the same league as East Brunswick. Not by a long shot. Monroe is better. Cranbury is better. Even Highland Park is better. Heck, even Piscataway is better than Sayreville.

[drewby]

When answering what are the "worst" places, try to remember that "worse" or "better" are completely subjective that mean different things to different people where they are in life. Try to be more specific. If you are trying to raise kids, then things such as quality of education may matter to you (look up school district test scores and teacher reviews). If you own a home, then other things such as affordability and strength of community may matter to you. If you are into prestige or high-class living, perhaps being able to rent an apartment in a prestige town (such as Princeton or Millburn)
If you are of immigrant stock, then living in ethnic community with people like you (such as Brazilians in Newark, Indians in Jersey City, Peruvians in Paterson or Colombians in Elizabeth, to only scratch the surface) matters to you. If proximity to the City is important, then proximity to Manhattan matters (you'd look at Hudson/Bergen County and anywhere with good rail)

For me and more than a few folks, I'd define "worst" as true "inner-city" places - where our Federal and Local government has failed for generations, where poor blacks are so marginalized and forgotten, drugs anchor the economy with all its violence and social ills and where there still (pre-Obama) is little hope for change, because our society has all but abandoned them.. where immigrants don't even tread. These places are not entire?!? cities but sections. To know where the ghettos are is to actually know these cities. To paint all these cities with one broad brush is short selling, oversimplifying and a huge disservice to the 1million plus people who live in urban NJ. But that's the problem with America today. People don't take the time out to find out the truth. (Iraq War, Cold War, US imperialism, divide and conquer, capitalism as the tool for the greatest good for the most?!?) And when they do, it overwhelms them.

These worst areas are called "Ghettos" and in NJ, they exist in a major way in Central and South Wards of Newark (primarily along the Newark/Irvington border), Bergen-Lafayette sections of West Jersey City, to name the two cities I know the best. These areas most people would agree are the most unlivable or "worst" if you want to poll. But even then, you still have differentiate between blocks. Some streets are bettter than others. Though I've never been, since Camden is so small (geographically smaller than North Philly), I'm sure a ghetto could cover its entirety.

However, if you can properly define the ghetto, you should also be able to cross big swaths of each city off that worst list, and usually that is in areas with lots and lots of immigrants. Much of Newark (particularly in the North and East Sides) are nice areas and have attracted many new hard-working immigrants (Brazilian, Dominican, Portuguese, Ecuadorian, Ukranian) something I know from 1sthand experience. Ditto for Jersey City, but add a huge Asian (Indian, Filipino, Chinese) population and a viable yuppie/hipster element and you have a vibrant city (at least by post-industrial American standards). For people to continue to say that JC is the worst place to live, take a snapshot of Jersey City in 1980 and now one in 2008, and take a poll, which one most would prefer.

Yes, Elizabeth and Paterson have sections that are "ghetto" but really minor in scale compared to the areas I mentioned above (Camden, areas of Newark/JC) and on the whole just like Waterbury, Springfield, MA, Rochester, Syracuse NY or a million other cities up and down the Seaboard. Elizabeth, Union City, Passaic, Paterson all mostly safe immigrant areas, with well-deserved reputations for being OLD but not really that high a crime rate. Take a look at statistics. For example, Union City's crime per capita is lower than your standard US community even if you feel like you're in a different continent. Then there are some who will equate "worse" with color. For example, East Orange as one poster said has a large stable black middle-working class population, along with some poor areas and rough areas, but overall has a pretty low crime rate and is not a ghetto. (it's smaller than Camden but with a homicide rate 5-6 times as small) Can't say the same for Irvington, which inexplicably has a relatively high-income population, but is entrenched with gangs and violent crime.

At any rate, these cities are not any different from many cities in the Industrial Northeast and Midwest, and post-industrial America in general and indeed are very much like the ethnic enclaves of Queens or Brooklyn of NYC (In fact, there is little difference except where they surround Manhattan). Older generation immigrants move out, new generation immigrants move in, and it the first step on the ladder for those who believe in the American Dream, but much reviled for people who are already here.

I know mine is a unique perspective, but it's a valid one. You don't have to live in urban NJ, but you can surely appreciate it is way more complicated and richer than you know.

[sofietrt]

Originally Posted by drewby

When answering what are the "worst" places, try to remember that "worse" or "better" are completely subjective that mean different things to different people where they are in life. Try to be more specific. If you are trying to raise kids, then things such as quality of education may matter to you (look up school district test scores and teacher reviews). If you own a home, then other things such as affordability and strength of community may matter to you. If you are into prestige or high-class living, perhaps being able to rent an apartment in a prestige town (such as Princeton or Millburn)
If you are of immigrant stock, then living in ethnic community with people like you (such as Brazilians in Newark, Indians in Jersey City, Peruvians in Paterson or Colombians in Elizabeth, to only scratch the surface) matters to you. If proximity to the City is important, then proximity to Manhattan matters (you'd look at Hudson/Bergen County and anywhere with good rail)

For me and more than a few folks, I'd define "worst" as true "inner-city" places - where our Federal and Local government has failed for generations, where poor blacks are so marginalized and forgotten, drugs anchor the economy with all its violence and social ills and where there still (pre-Obama) is little hope for change, because our society has all but abandoned them.. where immigrants don't even tread. These places are not entire?!? cities but sections. To know where the ghettos are is to actually know these cities. To paint all these cities with one broad brush is short selling, oversimplifying and a huge disservice to the 1million plus people who live in urban NJ. But that's the problem with America today... You don't have to live in urban NJ, but you can surely appreciate it is way more complicated and richer than you know.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, and your perspective brings to the table some very important points to consider.

However, to attribute all of the ghetto and its ills to the marginalized Black in this country is inaccurate. With regards to race, many urban Latinos also comprise this "ghetto" you have in mind. Further, it is naive to attribute such ills of this cross-section of American society solely to a failure of government at any level.

Today, ghetto is more than a place of residence as your post suggests. Originally, the ghetto was indeed a place set aside for Jews during Papal rule, and it was not necessarily a place of poverty per se. Certainly, the ghetto in America of today is a place of slums where the poor of numerous races in our country live. This ghetto is a place that most there want to leave... even so for the gang drug dealer who gets tired of the stress of his chosen lifestyle which only fuels the ghetto culture within which he lives.

The American ghetto of today is also a mindset that crosses all economic classes of society. Even good 'ole felon Martha Stewart originally of Nutley says she can "get ghetto" when she needs to be. Yet as a place, I would not consider Nutley, New Jersey generally as a ghetto.

Ghetto is no longer simply where you live but how you live. Specifically, ghetto has evolved into highly unacceptable behavior which has become acceptable in the eyes of too many.

I've been in a "ghetto" in a subway car by the above (low) standard.

No home training... that's what's happening. Kids are not getting the boundaries they must have in order to become productive, law abiding citizens regardless of how much money they come from or ever themselves earn. And this lowering of the bar has seeped well beyond parenting in the home all the way into our very institutions be it government, religion, education, etc. For example, New Jersey's corrupt politics is about years of enabling/tolerating/excusing unacceptable behavior on the part of some of the state's civil servants. The bar has been way too low in New Jersey for far too long. And people of all economic classes here keep voting it in! That said, throwing money by the government at these problems doesn't work. Tax and spend isn't the solution.

Ghetto in the US is no longer just a Black thing... it's an American thing... an American problem.

All said... I can see how some people here on the forum see certain New Jersey cities other than Camden, Trenton, Newark, Jersey City, Paterson, et. al. as "worst" places to live.

[drewby]

Sofie Trt,

I also agree with a lot of your points. But I'd like to respond as well. Yes the Ghetto is not a marginalized Black thing.. Not at all. Did you know that the Bronx is now majority poor Hispanic, rather than poor black? A lot of people dont know this.. So yes, this is true.

As for the Ghetto becoming a state of mind of course it's been that way for a generation (if not longer) and it inflicts everyone of all colors and classes. But I was speaking of ghetto in the physical sense, and to me, Ground Zero is still the major drug corridors, and it doesn't matter what color you are, brown, black, blue, or green, those are still the most unliveable places to be... No, throwing money at the government, or to corporations (ie: $700 billion) doesn't work either. But it takes smart money, smart people, smart policy for solutions, and be as it may, the government is still responsible for the general welfare of society. Who else will? And as for bad choices, who will fund the money for a truly uncorrupt party and get it to be a legit option to Democrats and Repubs? I don't care if it's big or small, as long as it works... In the last decade, our government has been preaching small government, but spending more than ever, giving it away to corporations (ie: Blackwater)



Let's not forget that the State and Muni corruption is only a mirror of our Federal government's corruption, both on domestic and foreign policy, Wall Street and Big Business corruption, Military corruption, Church's corruption, Hollywood's corruption and our own personal corruption... You said it, I agree..... And our State and Muni corruption is on a small scale compared to these large national and global forces. Power begets power. In America we are a nation of individualists... We want ourselves to be rich and powerful, screw everyone else. What we don't like to admit is this philosophy is in direct conflict with democracy, which usually votes for the greatest good for the most people. What gives? We still are a democracy right?

[Rwarky]

Originally Posted by Niceguynj

Are these The worst Places To Live In NJ Or Do You have An Even Worse List?

Some places people have said are.........

Newark Nj
Camden Nj
Jersey City Nj
East Orange Nj
Irvington Nj
Camden Nj
Elizabeth Nj
Rahway Nj
Carteret Nj

I think these towns get a bad rap, they have nice homes that are affordable
Do you have Any places to add here?

Sorry to say it, but the entire state of New Jersey is a bad place to live.

[monack]

Originally Posted by Rwarky

Sorry to say it, but the entire state of New Jersey is a bad place to live.

Lucky for you, this is a democracy, and you don't have to live here.

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by Niceguynj

The worst Places To Live In NJ ?

That would be an area incompassing all the land just south of New York, bordered by Pennsylvania on the west and the Atlantic Ocean on the east and just North of Delaware except for Long Beach Island.

[sofietrt]

Originally Posted by drewby

Sofie Trt,

I also agree with a lot of your points. But I'd like to respond as well. Yes the Ghetto is not a marginalized Black thing.. Not at all. Did you know that the Bronx is now majority poor Hispanic, rather than poor black? A lot of people dont know this.. So yes, this is true.

As for the Ghetto becoming a state of mind of course it's been that way for a generation (if not longer) and it inflicts everyone of all colors and classes. But I was speaking of ghetto in the physical sense, and to me, Ground Zero is still the major drug corridors, and it doesn't matter what color you are, brown, black, blue, or green, those are still the most unliveable places to be... No, throwing money at the government, or to corporations (ie: $700 billion) doesn't work either. But it takes smart money, smart people, smart policy for solutions, and be as it may, the government is still responsible for the general welfare of society. Who else will? And as for bad choices, who will fund the money for a truly uncorrupt party and get it to be a legit option to Democrats and Repubs? I don't care if it's big or small, as long as it works... In the last decade, our government has been preaching small government, but spending more than ever, giving it away to corporations (ie: Blackwater)...
In America we are a nation of individualists... We want ourselves to be rich and powerful, screw everyone else. What we don't like to admit is this philosophy is in direct conflict with democracy, which usually votes for the greatest good for the most people. What gives? We still are a democracy right?

Wow... I see some painting of broad brush strokes here... And a discussion that is getting off topic to the OPs original post.

Anyway...

First, not everyone in America is rich and powerful. Hence, such is why this list of New Jersey cities have been deemed by others here on the forum as undesirable because such cities carry the negative consequences of economic poverty (as in ghetto being a physical manifestation contained within a place of residence) and social poverty (which is what I was getting at by "ghetto" being also a mindset and now a mainstream part of the American culture).

Selfishness and materialism are nothing new here in America nor the Western world at large. Even so, not everyone in America carries an attitude of "screw everyone else" be it their next door neighbor or the rest of the world, regardless of their culture of origin, or their political party affiliation be it Democrat, Republican, Independent, or otherwise.

America has a spirit of individualism but that which is a product of its beginnings as a country, and I think is not to be confused with selfishness and materialism. I happen to be English... but have resided in the States for years now. American democracy with its focus on separation of power is not exactly the same as the parlimentary sovereignty philosophy that exists in the UK. That said, people around the world use the term "democracy" to mean different things but in terms of the US government, a democracy is a form of governing whereby the people have power via a free electoral system, the origins of which come from the governance historically found in certain Greek city-states. Last time I heard such a model was still present in the US, so I would say yes the US is still a democracy. Recently, an unprecedented number of people spoke (voted) and a majority of them elected Obama. So again I'd say democracy is alive and well here in the US, and I'm glad for it regardless of what one's view of the best role government should take here in the US or how fit (smart as in world savvy not necessarily intellectually intelligent) Barack Obama is to lead the United States.

I have a number of friends who are also immigrants. More often than not it is the belief of today's immigrant that a "better" life is to be had here in America, and that idea and ideal is what draws them here no different than those that have come before them for many years now... "better" meaning a wealthier life economically than their birthplace. (My own parents came from working class backgrounds and "moved up" economically by their own hard labour.) Does that make the immigrant here in America selfish and materialistic?

The history of "solving poverty" here in America is what I had in mind when thinking about the relationship of ghetto as it has evolved in the US to certain American cities (those in NJ included) presently seen by many as undesirable places to live. Such a history involves American government spending millions and millions of tax dollars building housing that in many cases ended up being abject failures... Pruitt Igoe of St. Louis Missouri and Cabrini Green of Chicago Illinois come to mind. Both are cases where government became "large" and yet failed miserably to solve the problem of poverty, hence rendering portions of two major US cities as highly undesirable places to live not only to Whites but Blacks as well. This is why I hold the belief that government in the US generally does not do very well in this area of public policy.

(Similar situations exist in the UK where public housing is called council housing or flatts.)

Governments here in America also have spend huge amounts of tax dollars ineffectively towards public school education. Look at Chicago city public schools... some of the worst in the nation... and it isn't because no money is spent! I read that over $10,000/student a year is spent... and the student academic performance coupled with lack of accountability for teacher performance (due in large part to unions) shows such spending to be a waste. Similar conclusions can be drawn about the Abbott school district system in Jersey for economically disadvantaged urban kids... a case where legislated "spreading around the wealth" simply has not worked. Almost all of the New Jersey cities quoted on this thread as "undesirable" are Abbott districts. Hence, tax and spend isn't a solution.

The American welfare state is another topic of great debate, and I happen to believe that the system as is (mind you again funded by American taxpayer dollars) by and large serves as a great disincentive for its recipients to use such temporarily as a stepping stone to get through a rough patch, instead fostering for too many the incentive to remain on it as a permanent way of life. Yet another fixture of the ghetto both as a place and as a mindset.

All said, I think a major role of government should be to protect the physical safety of the people as well as create the economic and social incentives for businesses to be created and hence jobs to be created. Currently, New Jersey fails miserably at doing such for it's residents due to its high taxation and other policies and practices. So much so that there are lots of people who will think that all of New Jersey is undesireable for living. It is this sense of "smaller government" here in America be it at the federal, state, or muni level that I embrace, being at least less interference with entrepreneural enterprise and the free market so as to create incentives for people of all backgrounds to support themselves and live decently. If some happen to become financially wealthy through their own hard labour, then so be it. Many a greater good has come from the charity and financial donation of certain wealthy. Not all the wealthy are selfish. There will always be a remnant of the poor among us.

[stevemorse]

Originally Posted by sofietrt

Wow... I see some painting of broad brush strokes here... And a discussion that is getting off topic to the OPs original post.

Anyway...

First, not everyone in America is rich and powerful. Hence, such is why this list of New Jersey cities have been deemed by others here on the forum as undesirable because such cities carry the negative consequences of economic poverty (as in ghetto being a physical manifestation contained within a place of residence) and social poverty (which is what I was getting at by "ghetto" being also a mindset and now a mainstream part of the American culture).

Selfishness and materialism are nothing new here in America nor the Western world at large. Even so, not everyone in America carries an attitude of "screw everyone else" be it their next door neighbor or the rest of the world, regardless of their culture of origin, or their political party affiliation be it Democrat, Republican, Independent, or otherwise.

America has a spirit of individualism but that which is a product of its beginnings as a country, and I think is not to be confused with selfishness and materialism. I happen to be English... but have resided in the States for years now. American democracy with its focus on separation of power is not exactly the same as the parlimentary sovereignty philosophy that exists in the UK. That said, people around the world use the term "democracy" to mean different things but in terms of the US government, a democracy is a form of governing whereby the people have power via a free electoral system, the origins of which come from the governance historically found in certain Greek city-states. Last time I heard such a model was still present in the US, so I would say yes the US is still a democracy. Recently, an unprecedented number of people spoke (voted) and a majority of them elected Obama. So again I'd say democracy is alive and well here in the US, and I'm glad for it regardless of what one's view of the best role government should take here in the US or how fit (smart as in world savvy not necessarily intellectually intelligent) Barack Obama is to lead the United States.

I have a number of friends who are also immigrants. More often than not it is the belief of today's immigrant that a "better" life is to be had here in America, and that idea and ideal is what draws them here no different than those that have come before them for many years now... "better" meaning a wealthier life economically than their birthplace. (My own parents came from working class backgrounds and "moved up" economically by their own hard labour.) Does that make the immigrant here in America selfish and materialistic?

The history of "solving poverty" here in America is what I had in mind when thinking about the relationship of ghetto as it has evolved in the US to certain American cities (those in NJ included) presently seen by many as undesirable places to live. Such a history involves American government spending millions and millions of tax dollars building housing that in many cases ended up being abject failures... Pruitt Igoe of St. Louis Missouri and Cabrini Green of Chicago Illinois come to mind. Both are cases where government became "large" and yet failed miserably to solve the problem of poverty, hence rendering portions of two major US cities as highly undesirable places to live not only to Whites but Blacks as well. This is why I hold the belief that government in the US generally does not do very well in this area of public policy.

(Similar situations exist in the UK where public housing is called council housing or flatts.)

Governments here in America also have spend huge amounts of tax dollars ineffectively towards public school education. Look at Chicago city public schools... some of the worst in the nation... and it isn't because no money is spent! I read that over $10,000/student a year is spent... and the student academic performance coupled with lack of accountability for teacher performance (due in large part to unions) shows such spending to be a waste. Similar conclusions can be drawn about the Abbott school district system in Jersey for economically disadvantaged urban kids... a case where legislated "spreading around the wealth" simply has not worked. Almost all of the New Jersey cities quoted on this thread as "undesirable" are Abbott districts. Hence, tax and spend isn't a solution.

The American welfare state is another topic of great debate, and I happen to believe that the system as is (mind you again funded by American taxpayer dollars) by and large serves as a great disincentive for its recipients to use such temporarily as a stepping stone to get through a rough patch, instead fostering for too many the incentive to remain on it as a permanent way of life. Yet another fixture of the ghetto both as a place and as a mindset.

All said, I think a major role of government should be to protect the physical safety of the people as well as create the economic and social incentives for businesses to be created and hence jobs to be created. Currently, New Jersey fails miserably at doing such for it's residents due to its high taxation and other policies and practices. So much so that there are lots of people who will think that all of New Jersey is undesireable for living. It is this sense of "smaller government" here in America be it at the federal, state, or muni level that I embrace, being at least less interference with entrepreneural enterprise and the free market so as to create incentives for people of all backgrounds to support themselves and live decently. If some happen to become financially wealthy through their own hard labour, then so be it. Many a greater good has come from the charity and financial donation of certain wealthy. Not all the wealthy are selfish. There will always be a remnant of the poor among us.

well written post but even more the last two paragraphs are one of the most intelligent things I have read in a long time! Totally agree and nice to see someone not on the bash the rich bandwagon!! MY father grew up in Utica , his father was blind and deaf and died when my Dad was 10. My father worked his butt off, did all sorts of things to put himself thru school and college and got a PHD in Organic Chemistry. He worked and worked and worked. He also became very successful and is now extremely well off financially. This came thru learning and busting his butt. No one gave him a dime, they did not have it and he would not take it. So for all his hard work he has great wealth, and gives alot of it away to all people and charities. His main charity is lost pet and the mentally ill. I have seen him donate so much money for better conditions for the mentally ill in good finanical years he has donated to the mentally ill over 50 grand thats if the year has been good to him. Now granted I do not have as strong as a work ethic as him, due to being very spoiled however some of it has rubbed off. Its so nice to read someone who is not bashing people with money, some worked very hard to get that money and did give alot to society.

[sofietrt]

Originally Posted by stevemorse

Now granted I do not have as strong as a work ethic as him, due to being very spoiled however some of it has rubbed off. Its so nice to read someone who is not bashing people with money, some worked very hard to get that money and did give alot to society.

Interesting how that works isn't it? Those of us without the same degree of work ethic as that of their parents' who had to work doing whatever they could find in order to get their educations and move beyond "their ghetto." I, too, readily admit I do not possess the same degree of work ethic as did my parents nor most of my immigrant or disadvantaged friends here in America. I did not have to go through what they did in order to be where I'm at today financially, socially, or even spiritually.

A very close friend of mine by default landed in Jersey City upon their arrival to America some years back. Their story is amazing... a story of survival including 9/11 as they happened to be running late in their commute on that particular day. Through my years of friendship with this person, I have spent a fair amount of time in JC, and as a result I've had the opportunity to become somewhat immersed in various neighbourhoods of this city (the Heights being an exception). I've observed this city's evolution from utter decay to its present gentrification during the course of time that my friend has lived in various locations there and even since their departure for "greener pastures." Jersey City is an entry point for many immigrants... be they from Asia, Latin America, the West Indies, or the Middle East. It's a city where multiple generations of families born in America have and continue to live. It's also a city where outpriced NYers and professionals from other places now come to live. I've spent time in a suffocating crapbox tiny apartment located on a certain street there where you are too afraid to venture away from more than a block or two but nonetheless do so out of necessity at first because you don't have a car, and yet once you can afford to buy some wheels a place where you may come out the next morning to find your car windows smashed scattering broken glass as well as your dreams of finding a "better" life in America. I've spent time in a better apartment there in terms of building quality and location, and yet outside the front door there is still that same colour and mood where everyone you see has that look of being from someplace else... of being foreign. For many that's JC... it's a place where people from someplace else come to begin again... many with nothing but a sincere desire to work as hard as they have to in order to get to where it is they want to go from there. Some people there decide to stay... but typically they do not remain in their first dwelling there as an immigrant.

Further, there are some folks there who feel "stuck" who've been there their entire lives and they see no way out. That's the ghetto as a place and mindset there. Do they need help? Yes... but a mere government handout doesn't pull them out. It takes education beginning in the home and thus a radical re-wiring of the mind to leave all that the outside tells them to do. I know someone (and when I say "know" I mean I know them well) from that kind of life who got out... and they told me it was not public assistance alone that helped thus it was not the government that did it. This individual had what I would call an "old-school" grandmother raising them who was wise and strong enough to set very firm boundaries both pushing and motivating this person to get their college education and earn a living from legitimate means rather than an illegal underground economy fueled prodominently by crack and prostitution. Period. Amazing isn't it what the old-school can teach us?