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Thread summary:

Moving to New Jersey: purchase a house, traffic, Criminal Justice course, affordable, housing.

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Old 10-09-2007, 06:10 PM
 
9,124 posts, read 32,098,244 times
Reputation: 3519

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Originally Posted by jstar41 View Post
hey know it alll.. i went at around 10pm as we went out for dinner .. and i'm for real, i did not take a helicopter.. took the Goethals to the belt .. etc.. do you drive, maybe you should get a gps.. or at least use mapquest and plug in the address from elizabeth to brooklyn and you'll see the time and miles to get there..
so i guess it hurts you that the state graciously paid for schools in Elizabeth.. well too bad.. don't forget that the population is larger so more taxes the state collects from Elizabeth residents.. not to mention the property taxes..

Ahhh...10pm- that's a "typical" time for people to be driving back and forth to Brooklyn- might want to mention the time the drive was made next time you quote a time to travel from point to point. I don't need a GPS- I know the route well, as I worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for the better part of a year- can you get "to Brooklyn" in 25 minutes? Sure if conditions are just right, and you consider "getting to Brooklyn" hitting the NY side of the Verrazano and no further.

And yes, it does "hurt me" that the state paid for the schools in Elizabeth. I was involved in pricing and constructing several of those schools, and it was absurd how much money was wasted in the name of "education" that did nothing to actually help the kids. At one of the early childhood centers, a last minute sketch during the bidding process added several sculptural pieces by a local artist that were to be attached to the playground fencing to "inspire" the kids. Well, as I predicted at the time, the sculptures (which cost over $60,000, BTW) were torn off the fence and likely scrapped for crack money within a few weeks of opening. Seems someone neglected to realize that bronze had a pretty high scrap value. So, that's $60k of your tax dollars and mine, wasted- and thats only one of hundreds of such wastes I could show you.

And what massive tax amount do you think Elizabeth is collecting? I find it pathetic that the city has to drop it's sales tax to 1/2 of the state rate just to get people to go there to shop- doesn't that tell you something about the area? If they're doing so well at boosting the tax rolls, maybe they can start paying for their own school system now......

BTW- a few months ago I was involved in some preliminary budgeting for the huge pipe-dream residential project that was planned for behind Jersey Gardens. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that thing to take shape, seeing how the developer's proforma doesn't seem to come close to pencilling out based on construction costs. The costs to build are the same as Jersey City, but the potential rents and sales prices are around 1/2 of what JC can command. Newark has the same problem- plenty of pipe-dream projects that will likely never get built.

What's that old saying about a road paved with good intentions????

Bob
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:03 AM
 
562 posts, read 2,373,804 times
Reputation: 142
congrats, i'm impressed by your responses..

if you take a closer look at the OP, they said they'll be visiting family.. do you expect them to go during rush hour??? It'll be insane for anyone to travel anywhere at rush hour..

in regards to Elizabeth Schools.. I prefer my tax dollars to go to schools rather than people who get welfare, section 8, WIK, WAR, etc.. and i'm sure there is some corruption in the pricing and negotiating but tell me a place where there is no corruption.. at least they are doing something.. better than some people on forums who bad mouth gov't, city officials, mayors, towns, etc.. but yet they do not do anything.. IMO if you don't have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say, then don't say anything..

why should Elizabeth pay for the own schools? if the Fed is taking taxes too.. think about those towns that have little population.. should they pay for their own schools.. they probably won't be able to afford building a school.. apparantly you are involved in decision making in regards to budgeting.. so i'm going to assume that you must at least have a Bachelor Degree or somewhat of an education in regards to economy.. with this said rethink your posting.. and see if it makes sense..

You find it pathetic that Elizabeth offers 3.5% sales tax?? don't you think that's an ignorant comment.. seriously, you are saying that Elizabeth should not try to attract customers from other towns?? think globally.. do you think it's pathetic that global companies out source the helpdesk, customer service, calling centers to India?? again this is a business strategy.. for someone who apparently is heavily involved in budgeting for major decision making you sir make no sense..

I'm not trying to challenge you, because apparently you must be much older than me and might have a better insight on certain things.. but i must ask to please add constructive comments as I don't want to waste my time with long responeses to discuss your nonsense remarks..

BTW: I don't live in this forum unlike others.. i have work and a life to live.. sorry if I don't return back to this thread..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobKovacs View Post
Ahhh...10pm- that's a "typical" time for people to be driving back and forth to Brooklyn- might want to mention the time the drive was made next time you quote a time to travel from point to point. I don't need a GPS- I know the route well, as I worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for the better part of a year- can you get "to Brooklyn" in 25 minutes? Sure if conditions are just right, and you consider "getting to Brooklyn" hitting the NY side of the Verrazano and no further.

And yes, it does "hurt me" that the state paid for the schools in Elizabeth. I was involved in pricing and constructing several of those schools, and it was absurd how much money was wasted in the name of "education" that did nothing to actually help the kids. At one of the early childhood centers, a last minute sketch during the bidding process added several sculptural pieces by a local artist that were to be attached to the playground fencing to "inspire" the kids. Well, as I predicted at the time, the sculptures (which cost over $60,000, BTW) were torn off the fence and likely scrapped for crack money within a few weeks of opening. Seems someone neglected to realize that bronze had a pretty high scrap value. So, that's $60k of your tax dollars and mine, wasted- and thats only one of hundreds of such wastes I could show you.

And what massive tax amount do you think Elizabeth is collecting? I find it pathetic that the city has to drop it's sales tax to 1/2 of the state rate just to get people to go there to shop- doesn't that tell you something about the area? If they're doing so well at boosting the tax rolls, maybe they can start paying for their own school system now......

BTW- a few months ago I was involved in some preliminary budgeting for the huge pipe-dream residential project that was planned for behind Jersey Gardens. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that thing to take shape, seeing how the developer's proforma doesn't seem to come close to pencilling out based on construction costs. The costs to build are the same as Jersey City, but the potential rents and sales prices are around 1/2 of what JC can command. Newark has the same problem- plenty of pipe-dream projects that will likely never get built.

What's that old saying about a road paved with good intentions????

Bob
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:14 AM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,736 posts, read 8,545,601 times
Reputation: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstar41 View Post
in regards to Elizabeth Schools.. I prefer my tax dollars to go to schools rather than people who get welfare, section 8, WIK, WAR, etc.. and i'm sure there is some corruption in the pricing and negotiating but tell me a place where there is no corruption.. at least they are doing something.. better than some people on forums who bad mouth gov't, city officials, mayors, towns, etc.. but yet they do not do anything.. IMO if you don't have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say, then don't say anything..
Oh, there is definitely corruption. That aside, Bob's issue was with the waste associated - and being that I do quite a bit of school designs, I can tell you the typical school design has more wasteful & useless crap than any other design I have ever been involved with. This includes major mega-corporations, theatre's, etc - none of them throw money away like a school construction administrations do. None.

With a number of schools, the NJ SCC (School Construction Commission) has become involved, be it because the town isn't doing enough, or because of the No Child Left Behind Act (and its prior cases). The outcome... usually isn't what was intended when the SCC (and its ilk) were formed.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:36 AM
 
562 posts, read 2,373,804 times
Reputation: 142
that's excellent.. all communities need more agencies to keep an eye on the people who manage $$..
i see money as the dirtiest thing to handle.. it breaks friendships, businesses, family, etc.. you get my drift..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
Oh, there is definitely corruption. That aside, Bob's issue was with the waste associated - and being that I do quite a bit of school designs, I can tell you the typical school design has more wasteful & useless crap than any other design I have ever been involved with. This includes major mega-corporations, theatre's, etc - none of them throw money away like a school construction administrations do. None.

With a number of schools, the NJ SCC (School Construction Commission) has become involved, be it because the town isn't doing enough, or because of the No Child Left Behind Act (and its prior cases). The outcome... usually isn't what was intended when the SCC (and its ilk) were formed.
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:03 AM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,736 posts, read 8,545,601 times
Reputation: 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstar41 View Post
that's excellent.. all communities need more agencies to keep an eye on the people who manage $$..
i see money as the dirtiest thing to handle.. it breaks friendships, businesses, family, etc.. you get my drift..
Except the agencies have the opposite effect. Increased corruption, and that aside, increased waste in the design.
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Toms River, NJ
1,106 posts, read 4,364,540 times
Reputation: 652
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobKovacs View Post
S

And she also mentioned that she's got two kids- 4 and 7, and you're recommending that she look at Elizabeth. I hate to say it, but having worked on several of the new schools that the state so graciously paid for in Elizabeth, I wouldn't go around recommending them to anyone. While the buildings themselves are nice, the overall system still needs alot of help.

Bob
I was the one that recommended Elizabeth. I am a teacher in Elizabeth and MOST, not all the elementary schools are fine. I personally don't like the new schools but they are lottery so if you don't enter the lottery you don't send your children there. I worked in one for 6 months and will take my 90 year old neighborhood school building any day. My point was that temporarily since her oldest is only 7, some of the neighborhood schools are very good and the rents are affordable. I wouldn't recommend it if I wouldn't do it myself. FYI...the 4th grade in my school out-performed elementary schools in Livingston in the math part of the state NJ ASK test.
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:59 PM
 
9,124 posts, read 32,098,244 times
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Originally Posted by hrjersey View Post
FYI...the 4th grade in my school out-performed elementary schools in Livingston in the math part of the state NJ ASK test.
I remember seeing that tidbit quoted once before- I'm assuming it was by you.

So one class in one school in Elizabeth outperformed the schools in Livingston- is that truly something to be amazed by, or is it an isolated case of luck? When they get the SAT scores in the Elizabeth high schools over 800, maybe I'll begin to have some faith in the quality of schools there. High schools in Newark are doing better than that.......

Bob
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Old 10-10-2007, 05:55 PM
 
562 posts, read 2,373,804 times
Reputation: 142
you seem to be angry at the fact that Elizabeth has a chance to be good neighborhood or at least compete in regards to education.. People like you are the ones that once you see something wrong, instead of fixing the problem you add more to it..
many Elizabeth HS alumni have moved on to bigger and greater things.. I've met many in the business environment (fashion, media and technology mostly) in NYC.. what you lack to realize is that due the diversity and population of Elizabeth, many of US are used to dealing with whatever comes our way.. which is why many of US from ELIZABETH are able to cope with NYC global companies and fast pace environments.. don't ask me for examples because i'm not here to proof anything.. but believe me when I tell you that not to go so far at least 5 members of my family who were educated in Elizabeth make over 100k.. and work for global companies in NYC..
BUT I do admit that many students do not put the effort on learning.. simply b/c they don't have the opportunities of others, or because they don't have someone to push or advice them on their future.. IMO the basic education comes from home.. good teachers can do so much.. and if a class outperformes a school like livingston is that not something to be proud of? that's a big accomplishment for our students, don't you think.. or don't other schools celebrate when they win anything for example in sports..




Quote:
Originally Posted by BobKovacs View Post
I remember seeing that tidbit quoted once before- I'm assuming it was by you.

So one class in one school in Elizabeth outperformed the schools in Livingston- is that truly something to be amazed by, or is it an isolated case of luck? When they get the SAT scores in the Elizabeth high schools over 800, maybe I'll begin to have some faith in the quality of schools there. High schools in Newark are doing better than that.......

Bob
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:25 PM
 
9,124 posts, read 32,098,244 times
Reputation: 3519
J-

Honestly, I'm not that down on Elizabeth- what concerns me is when the OP comes in here saying they want a great neighborhood with great schools, and someone starts recommending Elizabeth. Sure, one class in one school did well on a test- they should be proud of it- but that doesn't mean that someone who had their kids in private schools and would "consider" public schools (see OP) should be referred to Elizabeth.

And sure- there's plenty of people who have done well from Elizabeth, just like there's plenty who have done well from Newark, East LA, New Orleans, and other not-so-good areas. Again, that doesn't mean that people should recommend that the OP should be looking at Elizabeth. She's trying to get out of Philly, and you're recommending that she go from one marginal urban area to another.

Why not Linden? Rahway? Woodbridge? I know you've got a vested interest in Elizabeth because you're dumping some huge amount of $$ into a new duplex there, but let's face it- it's not for everyone, and doesn't sound like a very good option for the OP. If you want to be an urban pioneer and try to bring Elizabeth back from it's decay, more power to you bro!

Bob
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Toms River, NJ
1,106 posts, read 4,364,540 times
Reputation: 652
Bob, yours is just one point of view so let me clarify where I'm coming from. My point is that at the elementary levels these schools aren't doing so badly. Yes, I can point to one instance of out-performance but I see it every day. These are good teachers teaching good kids that want to learn. Their home environment however plays a significant role in their ultimate achievement. Unfortunately as these kids get older outside influences create a much greater demand on their immature senses and the learning that needs to continue through middle and high school gets lost. They do not have the home support to push them in many cases.

I grew up in a middle class NJ suburb. I am working on my Masters degree. I worked in business management for 17 years so I value education and all the doors it opens. I now have a 3 year old. I wont hesitate to put her in pre-k in Elizabeth next year if I have the opportunity. I am currently considering renting an apartment there so I can do this and cut down on my 2 hour commute from Toms River. That said, as my daughter approached middle school age I would change districts. That's an honest opinion of a single working mom. But I would not recommend someone spend $450k on property there. I put my money where my mouth is. I can tell someone to rent in Livingston or Cranford or plenty of other places but not everyone can afford it. The OP gave a budget of 1-1.5K per mos. They have 2 kids so they need at least a 2 bedroom apt. and I did qualify my post by saying if they don't like Philly they may not like Elizabeth but the fact is in their budget for the time they are looking to stay I stand by my recommendation.
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