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Old 10-11-2007, 11:34 AM
 
Location: New Jersey/Florida
5,370 posts, read 10,128,606 times
Reputation: 3496

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Amen, Scranton
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Old 10-11-2007, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
29,617 posts, read 65,648,793 times
Reputation: 15060
Quote:
Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
typical naive liberal groupthink, society has no right to determine how I spend my money, how I use resources available to all, how much debt I care to carry, like I noted earlier, next you'll be telling me what church to go to and what I can eat, oops they're already doing that!
what the simpletons don't grasp is that there is no one size that fits all.
the east germans tried it, everyone got a white trabant, the first possession they dumped when they were liberated from the tyranny they suffered under was that piece of crap car.

You ideas make you appear as a poster boy for demagoguery and tyranny, god save us from your ilk

Apparently reading about macroeconomics is too vague of a concept for you to grasp, so I'll provide you with some concrete numerical figures in case you're better at mathematics.

Let us assume that there is a finite supply of gasoline in the world (which is true). Let us also assume that there are 800,000,000 people on Earth who drive vehicles (which may or may not be accurate). Let us assume that there are only two options of vehicles for this population to purchase---a Toyota Prius that nets 50 miles per gallon on the highway or a Hummer which nets 14 miles per gallon on the highway (these fuel efficiency estimates are only conjecture; there might be a small margin of error). Let's suppose all 800,000,000 decide that they want to look cool and "keep up with the Jones's," so they all run out and purchase Hummers. Let's also assume that Hummers have 20-gallon tanks (which may or may not be true), which would mean that a full tank would be expected to permit an individual to drive 280 miles on one tank of gas before having to fill up again (20 gallons x 14 miles per gallon = 280 miles).

Let's assume that the 800,000,000 people are all lectured by Al Gore and decide to purchase the Prius instead. Let's assume that the Prius has a 10-gallon tank, which is half the size of a Hummer. This would permit an individual driving a Prius to travel 500 miles on one tank of gas before having to fill up again (10 gallons x 50 miles per gallon = 500 miles). If the tank on the Prius were 20 gallons, the same as the Hummers in our example, then one could travel 1,000 miles on a single tank of gas, which is 720 more miles than on a single tank of gas in a Hummer.

After one week in the first option it is time for the 800,000,000 with the Hummers to fill their tanks back up. (800,000,000 tanks x 20 gallons of gas per tank= 16,000,000,000 gallons of gas!) In the second example it is time for the 800,000,000 with the Priuses to fill their tanks back up after three weeks. (800,000,000 tanks x 10 gallons of gas per tank = 8,000,000,000 gallons of gas). This is half of the amount of fuel used to fill the tanks of the Hummers in the first example, even after a span of three weeks had elapsed. At the same rate, these Hummers will have had to have been filled three times over the course of three weeks (once per week) for a whopping grand total of 48,000,000,000 gallons of gasoline at the same time as the Prius drivers used only 1/6 as much gas over that same three-week timeframe.

What could 1/6 the demand do to gas prices? I'll let you be the judge. Naturally we have to take aircraft, tractor-trailers, home heating fuel, etc. into effect as well with demand, but as you can see with this simple Hummer vs. Prius scenario, the savings can be amazing if we would all learn to just be a bit less selfish and a bit more socially-responsible. I refuse to idly sit by and pay progressively higher and higher gas prices just so some guy in Jersey can say "I drive a Hummer. Go me!" while driving up our demand.
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Old 10-11-2007, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
29,617 posts, read 65,648,793 times
Reputation: 15060
Quote:
Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
typical naive liberal
Why thank you! I'll take that as a compliment.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:05 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,858 posts, read 8,052,117 times
Reputation: 3317
Phew-where's the fire extinguisher!? I found humor in Jerseyman's post, but apparently some did not. I don't exactly advocate instituting a "commuter police" that will tell people what to drive, but I am damn well within my rights to laugh my fool head off at someone who pays near $60K for a vehicle that costs $100 to fill up, gets less than 12 MPG on the highway, and that they can't park without a spotter Personally, I find SUVs about as useful as cars (you can't really haul anything in either of them), which is why I own a truck I told my fiancee that when the little ones come I'm trading my current regular cab pickup for a crew cab-we're not wasting our money on an SUV.

To address avpb guy's points about biodiesel, I've been using it in my truck (2003 F-350 Powerstroke) for quite a while now in a 20% concentration (B20) which is the most commonly available mixture commercially at the moment. I get mine through a co-op, which I help to maintain, and the cost to me is about $0.40 per gallon for pure biodiesel. I don't know about you, but I'm paying anywhere from $2.89 to $2.99 right now with the fall heating oil spike. The issues you're referring to regarding clogged fuel filters and rotted fuel lines only apply to older vehicles. Anything manufactured after about 1995 is equipped with viton rubber fuel system components, which biodiesel does not affect. Also, any vehicle less than ten years old is not going to have the sludge problems from older, dirtier diesel fuels which would cause filter clogging. I have never changed a filter (other than for regularly scheduled maintenance) or a fuel line on my truck. However I do notice the following:

-Quieter injectors (the '99-'03 Powerstrokes are notoriously noisy)
-Less black smoke

Also, as a 20 year diesel owner you are certainly aware of the fact that the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) has much less lubricity than any fuels prior. Just a 5% concentration of biodiesel increases lubricity to higher than pre-ULSD levels. I get abpv, you're a conservative, you hate Willie Nelson, and you automatically distrust any technology labeled as "green." So, I ask you this: Why is "green" (solar, wind, ethanol, biodiesel, landfill gas, geothermal, etc...) bad when it puts money into the pockets of AMERICAN companies and farmers rather than Middle Eastern nations who wish us harm? It really is that simple. Most of the time I'll simply agree to disagree with someone, but this time, apbv, you're just plain 100% wrong.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:06 PM
 
Location: 3219'03.7"N 10643'55.9"W
7,962 posts, read 16,772,619 times
Reputation: 6912
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrantonWilkesBarre View Post
I refuse to idly sit by and pay progressively higher and higher gas prices just so some guy in Jersey can say "I drive a Hummer. Go me!" while driving up our demand.
Scranton,

While I admire your idealism, the sad truth is there is nothing you can do about this, as one person. Apbvguy is correct: as long as we live in a free society, there is not much legislation that is going to make its way through congress and get signed on the President's pen. If you don't like a Hummer, then don't drive one. It's similar to a bumper sticker that I once saw, and it's noteworthy in the comparison: "If you are against abortion, then don't have one". These are the foibles of living in a free society: you are not always going to agree with behaviors, but be happy with what you've got. The alternative is you could be in Mauritania, digging in the dumpster for a peach pit. It could be much worse.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Atlantic Highlands NJ/Ponte Vedra FL/NYC
2,689 posts, read 2,847,394 times
Reputation: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrantonWilkesBarre View Post
Apparently reading about macroeconomics is too vague of a concept for you to grasp, so I'll provide you with some concrete numerical figures in case you're better at mathematics.

Let us assume that there is a finite supply of gasoline in the world (which is true). Let us also assume that there are 800,000,000 people on Earth who drive vehicles (which may or may not be accurate). Let us assume that there are only two options of vehicles for this population to purchase---a Toyota Prius that nets 50 miles per gallon on the highway or a Hummer which nets 14 miles per gallon on the highway (these fuel efficiency estimates are only conjecture; there might be a small margin of error). Let's suppose all 800,000,000 decide that they want to look cool and "keep up with the Jones's," so they all run out and purchase Hummers. Let's also assume that Hummers have 20-gallon tanks (which may or may not be true), which would mean that a full tank would be expected to permit an individual to drive 280 miles on one tank of gas before having to fill up again (20 gallons x 14 miles per gallon = 280 miles).

Let's assume that the 800,000,000 people are all lectured by Al Gore and decide to purchase the Prius instead. Let's assume that the Prius has a 10-gallon tank, which is half the size of a Hummer. This would permit an individual driving a Prius to travel 500 miles on one tank of gas before having to fill up again (10 gallons x 50 miles per gallon = 500 miles). If the tank on the Prius were 20 gallons, the same as the Hummers in our example, then one could travel 1,000 miles on a single tank of gas, which is 720 more miles than on a single tank of gas in a Hummer.

After one week in the first option it is time for the 800,000,000 with the Hummers to fill their tanks back up. (800,000,000 tanks x 20 gallons of gas per tank= 16,000,000,000 gallons of gas!) In the second example it is time for the 800,000,000 with the Priuses to fill their tanks back up after three weeks. (800,000,000 tanks x 10 gallons of gas per tank = 8,000,000,000 gallons of gas). This is half of the amount of fuel used to fill the tanks of the Hummers in the first example, even after a span of three weeks had elapsed. At the same rate, these Hummers will have had to have been filled three times over the course of three weeks (once per week) for a whopping grand total of 48,000,000,000 gallons of gasoline at the same time as the Prius drivers used only 1/6 as much gas over that same three-week timeframe.

What could 1/6 the demand do to gas prices? I'll let you be the judge. Naturally we have to take aircraft, tractor-trailers, home heating fuel, etc. into effect as well with demand, but as you can see with this simple Hummer vs. Prius scenario, the savings can be amazing if we would all learn to just be a bit less selfish and a bit more socially-responsible. I refuse to idly sit by and pay progressively higher and higher gas prices just so some guy in Jersey can say "I drive a Hummer. Go me!" while driving up our demand.

naive and simplistic, you've left out way too many variables to make this wackiness appear intelligent.
I don't want to drive a prius, most people don't. some people need the room a large vehicle offers, and would need 2 priuses to do the job of their 1 suv, I guess that puts a wrench in your half baked calculations.
I don't care how much fuel costs because at some point the price will get too high and that is when alternative sources of energy or travel will be developed, or people will be forced into dramatically different lifestyles, places like scranton will revert to being jerky backwater hick towns as people flood into the large cities to concentrate because they will no longer have freedom of movement and economics of scale will rule.
The reality is that the marketplace will always keep things in balance as long as kooks and charlatans aren't permitted to meddle in the marketplace
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:16 PM
 
Location: NJ/NY
9,598 posts, read 9,467,492 times
Reputation: 6725
One flight on a private jet probably uses more fuel than a hummer could use in a year, yet nobody seems to complain about that. When our "socially responsible" role models start flying commercial, maybe I will take them more seriously.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,858 posts, read 8,052,117 times
Reputation: 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by eskmd View Post
One flight on a private jet probably uses more fuel than a hummer could use in a year, yet nobody seems to complain about that. When our "socially responsible" role models start flying commercial, maybe I will take them more seriously.
Good point. Willie travels in a bus that runs on biodiesel.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Sneads Ferry NC/Randolph NJ/Cape Coral FL
12,925 posts, read 24,052,828 times
Reputation: 10739
[quote=ScrantonWilkesBarre;1707652]So people in NJ don't have the money to afford property taxes, yet they have the money to purchase Hummers. I understand things perfectly now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I have no problem paying my taxes thank you very much
The median income in NM is much lower then NJ hence my comment.

In all reality I don't give a rats fat azz who drives what and who lives in what..just passing time here like most of us and very rarely take it to serious
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Atlantic Highlands NJ/Ponte Vedra FL/NYC
2,689 posts, read 2,847,394 times
Reputation: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740 View Post
Phew-where's the fire extinguisher!? I found humor in Jerseyman's post, but apparently some did not. I don't exactly advocate instituting a "commuter police" that will tell people what to drive, but I am damn well within my rights to laugh my fool head off at someone who pays near $60K for a vehicle that costs $100 to fill up, gets less than 12 MPG on the highway, and that they can't park without a spotter Personally, I find SUVs about as useful as cars (you can't really haul anything in either of them), which is why I own a truck I told my fiancee that when the little ones come I'm trading my current regular cab pickup for a crew cab-we're not wasting our money on an SUV.

To address avpb guy's points about biodiesel, I've been using it in my truck (2003 F-350 Powerstroke) for quite a while now in a 20% concentration (B20) which is the most commonly available mixture commercially at the moment. I get mine through a co-op, which I help to maintain, and the cost to me is about $0.40 per gallon for pure biodiesel. I don't know about you, but I'm paying anywhere from $2.89 to $2.99 right now with the fall heating oil spike. The issues you're referring to regarding clogged fuel filters and rotted fuel lines only apply to older vehicles. Anything manufactured after about 1995 is equipped with viton rubber fuel system components, which biodiesel does not affect. Also, any vehicle less than ten years old is not going to have the sludge problems from older, dirtier diesel fuels which would cause filter clogging. I have never changed a filter (other than for regularly scheduled maintenance) or a fuel line on my truck. However I do notice the following:

-Quieter injectors (the '99-'03 Powerstrokes are notoriously noisy)
-Less black smoke

Also, as a 20 year diesel owner you are certainly aware of the fact that the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) has much less lubricity than any fuels prior. Just a 5% concentration of biodiesel increases lubricity to higher than pre-ULSD levels. I get abpv, you're a conservative, you hate Willie Nelson, and you automatically distrust any technology labeled as "green." So, I ask you this: Why is "green" (solar, wind, ethanol, biodiesel, landfill gas, geothermal, etc...) bad when it puts money into the pockets of AMERICAN companies and farmers rather than Middle Eastern nations who wish us harm? It really is that simple. Most of the time I'll simply agree to disagree with someone, but this time, apbv, you're just plain 100% wrong.
well you make a lot of assumptions there, just how did you determine that I hate willie nelson?? my point was that most people don't have the money he has to experiment with a $50K+ car whose mechanics are charging over $125 an hour to fix his toys.
Your b20 might work for you, but 1. I have never seen it sold anywhere on the east coast and 2. your 20% is nowhere close to what the other person advocated and what I commented on and what apparently you failed to comprehend, was using 100% veg oil, I guess you're just full of off base assumptions.
regarding ethanol I don't know if you've noticed how the prices in the supermarkets have increased recently but those increases are only the beginning of even higher food prices as the production of ethanol take corn products out of the food supply. Another folly regarding ethanol is that is takes more fossil fuel to produce ethanol in the US than the final product saves, and using ethanol the efficiency of the vehicle is almost 30% lower.
there is no efficient way to transport ethanol so if it's use ever goes mainstream expect more plants producing the stuff closer to where you live, Then people will be whining about the pollution from that local processing plant.

regarding wind and solar, it is the enviro whacks who have successfully blocked any attempts near NJ to build wind turbine farms and when photoelectric cells are proposed they fight their installation, so much for alternative energy.
so before calling someone wrong and insulting their political beliefs, get your facts straight and don't assume so much
and lastly those noisy american diesels are garbage, my current diesel is as quiet as any car on the road, does not spew any black smoke and gets over 30 mpg in variable traffic and almost 40 mpg on long highway runs, I bet your truck barely does 19 mpg at any time, try finding a decent sized vehicle than can match those numbers and then we can talk about who really is a fuel hog
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