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Old 11-14-2012, 08:09 AM
 
549 posts, read 924,801 times
Reputation: 1125

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I have always gone out at Dark o'Clock in the morning on Black Friday. Whether I was shopping and hitting the bargains or not. I don't go to the stores with the crazy long lines, I go to the smaller stores, or get to the big box stores a little later... It's the one day a year I treat myself to a fancy Starbucks concoction. I like the crowds, I like the hustle and bustle, and Black Friday shopping is what gets me in the holiday mood. Besides, leaving the house before 5 am was the only way I was able to shop without the kids wanting to come with me!

But I will NOT go out on Thanksgiving day. Some things should be sacred. And since the sales are starting on Thursday, I will be sleeping in on Black Friday. I may not go shopping at all that day, I haven't decided. Either way, I'm disappointed that my own personal tradition has been effectively cancelled.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:46 AM
 
14,724 posts, read 31,648,319 times
Reputation: 14091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Freedom comes from Reason. Freedom is an invention of Man designed to allow a social system that operates harmoniously with our nature. Lower animals do not posess a rational faculty and simply eat each other. Which works well for them, given their nature, given the characteristics of their physical existence. Man is unique, and does not succeed based on physical prowess. It is our rational faculty that differentiates us. Reason differentiates us. And Reason does not operate well at the point of a gun, or more generally, under the threat of physical destruction. You cannot put a gun to someone's head and demand creativity and inventiveness and induction and deduction. In order to operate with any kind of efficiency, a mind needs to be free. That is our nature. That is a physical characteristic of our species that is observed in Reality.

Thus, in designing a political system that is moral, a system that permits man to operate in consonance with his nature, as a rational animal, the core value of that system has to be freedom. And so, Freedom was invented. Or rather, discovered. It works best in theory, and in practice. As it must, because it reflects Reality and the existential characteristics that elevate us above more primitive species.

So where does Freedom come from? It comes from us. Or at least, the best among us. It comes from introspection and self-observation and self-discovery. Freedom is our natural state, and needs to occupy our social systems, our government, our social institutions, our education, everything. To the degree it does not, to the degree we emulate the savages of the jungle and the animals in the Wild Kingdom, we become more like the countries that we so detest - the countries of mysticism and anti-rationality and violence and mayhem and Sharia Law and the Law of the Jungle and whatever other backward system we can observe in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th worlds.

The early soldiers who fought for freedom never sacrificed anything. They fought because they realized that no other way of life was acceptable. They did not fight for our freedom. They fought for something much more important: their freedom. We are the beneficiaries through observation of their courage. And with freedom constantly under threat, the fight never ends.

So when I hear some putrescent mayor of Paramus deciding who can open their bloody store and when, it sends me into a state. Freedom is more important than one person telling another what to do and what to celebrate. Everyone needs to mind their own business and if they don't want to shop? Stay the hell home! You are free if you decide to stay home. You are infringing on my freedom if you presume to decide when I should stay home.
Marc, I know your general stance very well. As a student of history and politics though, I simply cannot agree with you on the singular idea that freedom, or at least the form of it that we enjoy, is not directly attributable to daily sacrifice and blessings that are made by all Americans. If we want to eliminate the word "blessings" do to the religious connotation then let us simply refer to it as "fortune" whether through sheer dumb luck or effort. While I deeply treasure freedom and the things that it affords us, I also think that there are things greater then freedom and that is the sacrifices that allow us to enjoy it. Lincoln said it best, so I'll let his words stand on their own.

When I was younger most stores were simply not open on Thanksgiving or other major holidays. There was no decree or order making it so, it was just seen as the right thing to do, to give as many people as possible the opportunity to spend time with their family and give thanks for our fortune and remember the sacrifices of others. Did everyone observe the day, no. However, that is the freedom aspect. You are not required to do anything. You don't need to make a turkey and spend time with anyone. However, I do believe that the right thing to do is for businesses to close to give their employees the freedom to observe the day however they wish.

Are there those who must work that day? Of course. Police, fire, EMS, military, gas stations, etc. There are things that are simply necessary to allow society to function and those people do sacrifice, IMO, to enable everyone else to enjoy the day. However, grocery stores opening on the off-chance someone needs a can of cranberry sauce or the ever accelerating march of kicking off the holiday season sooner is something that no one really needs. I don't want to see laws passed to force stores to close on that day, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it isn't right and proper for them to be closed.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Cape Coral Fl /Randolph NJ
12,347 posts, read 22,371,959 times
Reputation: 9580
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Marc, I know your general stance very well. As a student of history and politics though, I simply cannot agree with you on the singular idea that freedom, or at least the form of it that we enjoy, is not directly attributable to daily sacrifice and blessings that are made by all Americans. If we want to eliminate the word "blessings" do to the religious connotation then let us simply refer to it as "fortune" whether through sheer dumb luck or effort. While I deeply treasure freedom and the things that it affords us, I also think that there are things greater then freedom and that is the sacrifices that allow us to enjoy it. Lincoln said it best, so I'll let his words stand on their own.

When I was younger most stores were simply not open on Thanksgiving or other major holidays. There was no decree or order making it so, it was just seen as the right thing to do, to give as many people as possible the opportunity to spend time with their family and give thanks for our fortune and remember the sacrifices of others. Did everyone observe the day, no. However, that is the freedom aspect. You are not required to do anything. You don't need to make a turkey and spend time with anyone. However, I do believe that the right thing to do is for businesses to close to give their employees the freedom to observe the day however they wish.

Are there those who must work that day? Of course. Police, fire, EMS, military, gas stations, etc. There are things that are simply necessary to allow society to function and those people do sacrifice, IMO, to enable everyone else to enjoy the day. However, grocery stores opening on the off-chance someone needs a can of cranberry sauce or the ever accelerating march of kicking off the holiday season sooner is something that no one really needs. I don't want to see laws passed to force stores to close on that day, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it isn't right and proper for them to be closed.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ
6,271 posts, read 6,330,259 times
Reputation: 9038
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Marc, I know your general stance very well. As a student of history and politics though, I simply cannot agree with you on the singular idea that freedom, or at least the form of it that we enjoy, is not directly attributable to daily sacrifice and blessings that are made by all Americans. If we want to eliminate the word "blessings" do to the religious connotation then let us simply refer to it as "fortune" whether through sheer dumb luck or effort. While I deeply treasure freedom and the things that it affords us, I also think that there are things greater then freedom and that is the sacrifices that allow us to enjoy it. Lincoln said it best, so I'll let his words stand on their own.

When I was younger most stores were simply not open on Thanksgiving or other major holidays. There was no decree or order making it so, it was just seen as the right thing to do, to give as many people as possible the opportunity to spend time with their family and give thanks for our fortune and remember the sacrifices of others. Did everyone observe the day, no. However, that is the freedom aspect. You are not required to do anything. You don't need to make a turkey and spend time with anyone. However, I do believe that the right thing to do is for businesses to close to give their employees the freedom to observe the day however they wish.

Are there those who must work that day? Of course. Police, fire, EMS, military, gas stations, etc. There are things that are simply necessary to allow society to function and those people do sacrifice, IMO, to enable everyone else to enjoy the day. However, grocery stores opening on the off-chance someone needs a can of cranberry sauce or the ever accelerating march of kicking off the holiday season sooner is something that no one really needs. I don't want to see laws passed to force stores to close on that day, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it isn't right and proper for them to be closed.
Abraham Lincoln was completely wrong with this statement. In fact, the statement is not even logical. But in any case, I respect that you do not want to compel anyone to do anything, and you are simply offering your view of right and wrong. Rational persuasion is moral. Arbitrary compulsion is not. Therefore we can agree to disagree on the philosophy, yet each of us remain free to live as we see fit. And that is the correct and moral approach.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:38 AM
 
14,724 posts, read 31,648,319 times
Reputation: 14091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Abraham Lincoln was completely wrong with this statement. In fact, the statement is not even logical. But in any case, I respect that you do not want to compel anyone to do anything, and you are simply offering your view of right and wrong. Rational persuasion is moral. Arbitrary compulsion is not. Therefore we can agree to disagree on the philosophy, yet each of us remain free to live as we see fit. And that is the correct and moral approach.
We will have to agree to disagree. I would personally rather live in Lincoln's world then in Gordon Gekko's.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:14 PM
 
5 posts, read 5,123 times
Reputation: 12
I like Black Friday sales but that is only because I shop online. I have no interest in getting up at dawn, wait in line, and deal with a bunch of savages that will trample you for a half priced flat screen TV.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:52 PM
 
1,977 posts, read 6,246,196 times
Reputation: 1140
Did it a few times, never doing it again. Family time is MUCH more important to me than a sale.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:37 AM
 
43,386 posts, read 43,238,092 times
Reputation: 45779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Somebody make it stop!!! I used to love Christmas, but I honestly dread "the holidays" the way they have commercialized everything so badly, and declared war against the religious meaning of Christmas.
You don't have to worry about what "they" do. Just worry about what you do. I don't like the buying frenzy over Christmas either, so I just don't participate in it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:19 AM
 
11,747 posts, read 13,645,663 times
Reputation: 15626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Somebody make it stop!!! I used to love Christmas, but I honestly dread "the holidays" the way they have commercialized everything so badly, and declared war against the religious meaning of Christmas.
Businesses exist to make money, and they use the marketing themes that they believe will be the most successful for them.

Just because a business doesn't use an overarching religious theme in their marketing during the run-up to Christmas, that does not constitute "a war on the religious meaning of Christmas". Similarly, when someone says, "Happy Holidays", rather than, "Merry Christmas", that also does not constitute a war against the religious meaning of Christmas.

In case you never thought about it, there are significant portions of the population that are... Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or atheist, or...who believe in some other philosophy that guides their lives. To assume that everyone is Christian is...naive and simply not accurate. For these non-Christian portions of the population--who also purchase gifts at this time of year--hearing Christian slogans may constitute someone trying to "push" another religion's values into their psyche.

Yes, I know that "a war on the religious meaning of Christmas" is one of the continuing themes that is hammered home on Faux News every year at this time, but that opinion of theirs is about as accurate as their projections about the outcome of the recent election.

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:54 AM
 
1,977 posts, read 6,246,196 times
Reputation: 1140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retriever View Post
Businesses exist to make money, and they use the marketing themes that they believe will be the most successful for them.

Just because a business doesn't use an overarching religious theme in their marketing during the run-up to Christmas, that does not constitute "a war on the religious meaning of Christmas". Similarly, when someone says, "Happy Holidays", rather than, "Merry Christmas", that also does not constitute a war against the religious meaning of Christmas.

In case you never thought about it, there are significant portions of the population that are... Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or atheist, or...who believe in some other philosophy that guides their lives. To assume that everyone is Christian is...naive and simply not accurate. For these non-Christian portions of the population--who also purchase gifts at this time of year--hearing Christian slogans may constitute someone trying to "push" another religion's values into their psyche.

Yes, I know that "a war on the religious meaning of Christmas" is one of the continuing themes that is hammered home on Faux News every year at this time, but that opinion of theirs is about as accurate as their projections about the outcome of the recent election.

+! Would rep you if i could
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