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Old 10-18-2007, 09:21 AM
 
Location: NJ
12,284 posts, read 30,944,500 times
Reputation: 5190

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaSkorpion View Post
Sorry to hear about your plight....unfortunately it is part of the many other reasons why some of us jumped ship in NJ to either PA or other areas.

It is what the system is in NJ...and some of us just got fed up -- but anyways good luck and hope you find a means to get out of this predicament.

===============
one of the reasons you left NJ was because of moving violations? that's a new one!
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Old 10-18-2007, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Lived Large in Parsippany NJ - Lived Larger in Livingston, NJ -- Now Living Huge in Bethlehem PA
460 posts, read 1,961,530 times
Reputation: 447
Hahaha not really moving violations but the games cops and auto insurance companies play in NJ --- I have had my share of NJ cops abusing my civil rights etc...but this is not the thread for that...I started a different thread on that a while ago.

Yeah tell me why would my 19yr old cousin have to pay almost $9K a year for auto insurance in NJ....he has never had any points or violations. Regardless of whether you get the violations or not you still somehow get penalized by the auto insurance companies in NJ.

Violations are a pain in NJ considering what you have to go through to fight them in court timewise, financially and mentally -- so yes it can be considered as one of the reasons why I jumped ship...this might be new to you because am not sure which part of NJ you live in or have lived..but show me one person who didn't have to go through such a mess for any 2pointer or 4pointer moving violation and did not get screwed by their insurance company.

=============

Quote:
Originally Posted by tahiti View Post
one of the reasons you left NJ was because of moving violations? that's a new one!
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Old 10-18-2007, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Lived Large in Parsippany NJ - Lived Larger in Livingston, NJ -- Now Living Huge in Bethlehem PA
460 posts, read 1,961,530 times
Reputation: 447
Default Hmmmm

You get surcharges after I think 8 points or more in NJ -- and not every one can easily get an auto policy with NJM so that leaves the unfortunate ones out.

Points do drop after a year they were incurred provided you do not get anymore violations after that also -- it depends on the severity of the accidents in most cases to get cited.

==========

Quote:
Originally Posted by tahiti View Post
i've never had a surcharge - at one time had 4 pts on my license (2*2pt infractions) and a year after they dropped off, had another 2 pointer. my husband was in 2 accidents within 2 yrs (both times stopping short to avoid the person in front of him, 1 time ran into the median the other time rear-ended, one car was totalled) and still no surcharges (fyi, he was not cited in either one).

another reason to get into NJM if you can!
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Old 10-18-2007, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Central Jersey - Florida
3,314 posts, read 12,260,185 times
Reputation: 2094
Quote:
Originally Posted by va-jc View Post
Just moved here from out of state couple of months ago and are regretting it after tonight. It was my first time ever in traffic court in New Jersey tonight and found out not only how desperate the state is for your money but also how corrupted the traffic system is.

I had a 2-pt ticket 4:81 failure to observe signal. It was a ticket I got because I got lost going through myriad of signs and streets in the city. I took a left turn out of a staight only street and got caught. Normally in another state (in this case, Pennsylvania and Virginia), a court date is a court date. It is the date for you to go before the judge and plead your case. Then he decides whether you are guilty, not guilty, or amend your charges. If they amend your charge, it would be the same fine but with no or reduced points. Not in this state or city. Court date and trial date is two separate animals.

“If you wish to plead not guilty, you must notify the court at the address and phone number as shown below at least 7 days prior to the court date listed on the front of the ticket. If you fail to notify the court, it may be necessary to make additional court appearances.”

Apparently, this statement on the ticket doesn’t count. I had notified the court on the phone and by mail at least 2 weeks before the court date and received a court date. So I expect to make it for one day and be done with. But that is not the case, court date in my case is for me to:

1. Plead guilty. Pay the fine and court fee.
2. Plead not guilty. Get a trial date set up.
3. Talk to the prosecutor and get it amended.

With exception of the first one, there are major problems with 2 and 3. And why would anyone come to court to plead guilty anyway if the Judge is not hearing your case?

As for number 2, I have already called in and wrote in to get the court date, why shouldn’t the police officer who wrote the ticket show up on the court date. So it is ok for the system to inconvenience the citizens, but not ask the officers to do the job that they are charged to do? If I do decide to plead not guilty, this is where the system start to look and sound corrupted. I had the prosecutor tell me that if I plead not guilty, went to trial, and lost, my fine will be bigger with the extra fine used to pay the officer’s time in court. What??!!! I would gladly pay a court fee for the judge’s and court’s time even if it is $100 or $200, but paying the opposing witness to testify against me? Are they on crack? Is this China or Cuba or North Korea?

For number 3, it showed the state is hungry for your money and will get it using any means possible. The amendment that everyone with 2 points received on the date was: Unsafe Driving, no points, $150 fine, $250 surcharge, and $39 court fee for $439 total. So it was either $85 plus $39 for guilty and 2 points or $439 with no points. Wow. It was $265 to trade for 2 points. It is almost extortion in my opinion. The statement is telling the citizens, “If you have money, it is ok. If not, you are so out of luck.” I continued to pressure the prosecutor after the initial offer and see if I can get it amended to another charge but failed in vain. As the time passed, I saw several attorneys that were able to get the same prosecutor to amend the 2 pt tickets to become a $45 no point ticket plus court fee. Talk about the double standard in the system. Citizens, bad deal. Attorneys, good deal. They did all this in front of our eye as if we are blind. I end up hiring an attorney right on the spot for couple of hundred and saved $150 over the recommended offer from the prosecutor. What a way to transfer wealth from the state government to attorneys. My final cost is $45 plus court fee for a total of $85 with no points on 4:145, failure to yield. I got out of the court in less than 5 minutes after I hired the attorney as anyone with an attorney goes first before anyone in the line. No wonder they say New Jersey is the most corrupt state in the entire US with two third of the citizens upset over the political system.

For anyone that says maybe I should’ve try and not get this ticket in the first place. I agree, but everyone make some sort of mistake once in awhile. Many of the people that I talked to in the court were first time offender in the state if not in the entire nation. Mistake happens, but it shouldn’t become a weapon for the government to extract as much money out of you as possible.
Having just retired from law enforcement after 30 years and being in court countless times I can tell you why the Police Officer wasn't there. Depending on what city court you may have to visit the number of "NO APPEARANCES" by defendants can number over 50% on any given day. I'll give you an example. Newark Municipal Court Part 3. Day court schedule may have 50 defendants on the docket. Of those 50 defendants lets just say there are 40 officers involved in those cases (multiple defendants / one officer). Now let's just say 20 defendants do not appear. That leaves 20 Police Officers sitting on the bench waiting for their cases to be called. Now those 20 officers may be on straight time or some or all may be on overtime. Either way you have a lot of cops sitting in a courtroom. The town administrators and taxpayers don't like cops sitting in a courtroom if he's on straight time when he can be out on patrol, or sitting in a court on overtime doing nothing.
In your case it seems like you were looking for a deal. You admit you commited a minor motor vehicle violation and you could have pled guilty and been done with it. In my 30 years I have never heard of a court charging a defendant for a police officer to appear in a trial. That seems like a fabrication on your part, so correct me if I'm wrong. Tell us what city or municipality you were in and I'll check to see if what your saying is accurate, or perhaps you misunderstood what the prosecutor was saying.
By the way the State of New Jersey now monitors how many times a person can to plead to a lesser motor vehicle violation in court. After the third time you S.O.O.L., you get what the officer charges you with , so in your case maybe you should be more aware of the rules of the road.
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:20 AM
 
Location: NJ
173 posts, read 537,443 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by exhdo1 View Post
Having just retired from law enforcement after 30 years and being in court countless times I can tell you why the Police Officer wasn't there. Depending on what city court you may have to visit the number of "NO APPEARANCES" by defendants can number over 50% on any given day. I'll give you an example. Newark Municipal Court Part 3. Day court schedule may have 50 defendants on the docket. Of those 50 defendants lets just say there are 40 officers involved in those cases (multiple defendants / one officer). Now let's just say 20 defendants do not appear. That leaves 20 Police Officers sitting on the bench waiting for their cases to be called. Now those 20 officers may be on straight time or some or all may be on overtime. Either way you have a lot of cops sitting in a courtroom. The town administrators and taxpayers don't like cops sitting in a courtroom if he's on straight time when he can be out on patrol, or sitting in a court on overtime doing nothing.
In your case it seems like you were looking for a deal. You admit you commited a minor motor vehicle violation and you could have pled guilty and been done with it. In my 30 years I have never heard of a court charging a defendant for a police officer to appear in a trial. That seems like a fabrication on your part, so correct me if I'm wrong. Tell us what city or municipality you were in and I'll check to see if what your saying is accurate, or perhaps you misunderstood what the prosecutor was saying.
By the way the State of New Jersey now monitors how many times a person can to plead to a lesser motor vehicle violation in court. After the third time you S.O.O.L., you get what the officer charges you with , so in your case maybe you should be more aware of the rules of the road.
With your first argument, you might argue we should never have a trial at all should the defendent decide to have a court date. It's a waste of time to the officers because maybe that person won't show up. The fact is that the Jersey court want you to make an extra trip to the court thus giving reason for out-of-staters and workers to just pay the fine and take the pts. As I mentioned, VA and PA did not do that from what I remember (2 years ago and 7 years ago, 1 date). I have heard about dates in Jersey City where almost the entire polite squad showed up, if that is the date that people want their trial heard, then schedule for that date and not wasting time. If I have to wait until mid night for that to happen, I will do so because I only have to go one time and not two. I also don't understand the reason we even need a prosecutor. He's there to give out offers only and nothing else. If that is the case, a judge could easily do that as he have to put everyone on stand that appear that night anyway. Another way for the state to waste money thus the heavy taxes. Again, VA and PA do not have prosecutors, but we happen to have 2 in the court room that I showed up.

About the statement charging a defendant for a police officer to appear in a trial. It was told to us (in front of the court room) by a prosecutor, so alot of ppl heard it. As you can tell by my handle, I moved to Jersey City thus JC. He basically says, if you go to trial, lost and found guilty, the judge will raise your fine to $200 with the extra going towards paying the cost of having the officer there. I did not fabricate that. Regarding your last statement about being aware of rules of the road, I think my original post already addressed that.

Going forward, a site like this Cops Writing Cops - Where's the Professional Courtesy? Law Enforcement and Polcie Officers help each other. (broken link) exists for a reason. Any cop that writes a cop gets a bad name for doing their job. A common sense I would say but coming out to the public and say it, plain stupid.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Central Jersey - Florida
3,314 posts, read 12,260,185 times
Reputation: 2094
Quote:
Originally Posted by va-jc View Post
With your first argument, you might argue we should never have a trial at all should the defendent decide to have a court date. It's a waste of time to the officers because maybe that person won't show up. The fact is that the Jersey court want you to make an extra trip to the court thus giving reason for out-of-staters and workers to just pay the fine and take the pts. As I mentioned, VA and PA did not do that from what I remember (2 years ago and 7 years ago, 1 date). I have heard about dates in Jersey City where almost the entire polite squad showed up, if that is the date that people want their trial heard, then schedule for that date and not wasting time. If I have to wait until mid night for that to happen, I will do so because I only have to go one time and not two. I also don't understand the reason we even need a prosecutor. He's there to give out offers only and nothing else. If that is the case, a judge could easily do that as he have to put everyone on stand that appear that night anyway. Another way for the state to waste money thus the heavy taxes. Again, VA and PA do not have prosecutors, but we happen to have 2 in the court room that I showed up.

About the statement charging a defendant for a police officer to appear in a trial. It was told to us (in front of the court room) by a prosecutor, so alot of ppl heard it. As you can tell by my handle, I moved to Jersey City thus JC. He basically says, if you go to trial, lost and found guilty, the judge will raise your fine to $200 with the extra going towards paying the cost of having the officer there. I did not fabricate that. Regarding your last statement about being aware of rules of the road, I think my original post already addressed that.

Going forward, a site like this Cops Writing Cops - Where's the Professional Courtesy? Law Enforcement and Polcie Officers help each other. (broken link) exists for a reason. Any cop that writes a cop gets a bad name for doing their job. A common sense I would say but coming out to the public and say it, plain stupid.
If you don't understand the need for a prosecutor in a court room let me suggest a course in criminal law 101. #1 A judge does not make plea deals, #2 a judge does not have to take the recommendation of the prosecutor for a plea deal. Maybe the laws in Virginia or P.A. allow it but Jersey law dosen't. As far as numerous police officers showing up for a court case, do you know why they were there. Was a chase involved? Was there M/V accidents during the chase? Were numerous officers injured on the call? Was the recovery of narcotics involved by one officer and the defendant was arrested by another? Was there more than one jurisdiction involved? Again I will refer you back to criminal law 101 or may I suggest reading New Jersey title 18, it's very informative. My personal opinion is maybe plea deals shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps all defendants should either plea guilty to the infraction stated on the summons and pay or go to trial, let the case stand on it's merits and have the judge find you either guilty or not guilty of the charge. My bet is that not too many people would like either option. Now for the cops writing cops summons issue. Is this the first time that you have heard about "Professional Courtesy"? I would think that is common knowledge in todays society. Police Officers showing discretion to other Police Officers and their family members and friends, is one of the few things that Police Officers have. It happens in all walks of society in varying degrees. Maybe your a little miffed that you don't have a P.B.A. card in your wallet, maybe your not! I agree that it should not be posted for all to see but like in any other profession there are people that shouldn't be working in certain fields. I will also say that there are circumstances where professional courtesy should not be extended. I've stopped P.O. family members that have given me P.B.A. cards and I thought the violation was bad enough to take the card from that person and send it back to the issuing officer with a note. I will tell you that many times it's the children of police officers that think having a P.B.A. card is a license to do as they please. Hopefully the parent sets them straight. By the way everybody that gets stopped for a M/V violation in this state does not get a ticket, many are issued warnings. Lastly now that you've peaked my curiosity, I will check in with a friend that's on the Jersey City Police Department and ask about the court charging defendants for officers to show up at trials. I'll have to get back to you on that one. In the interim may I suggest joining your local Law Enforcement Explorers program. It will give you a little insight on what it is being a Police Officer on a day to day basis.
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:17 PM
 
Location: NJ
173 posts, read 537,443 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by exhdo1 View Post
If you don't understand the need for a prosecutor in a court room let me suggest a course in criminal law 101. #1 A judge does not make plea deals, #2 a judge does not have to take the recommendation of the prosecutor for a plea deal. Maybe the laws in Virginia or P.A. allow it but Jersey law dosen't. As far as numerous police officers showing up for a court case, do you know why they were there. Was a chase involved? Was there M/V accidents during the chase? Were numerous officers injured on the call? Was the recovery of narcotics involved by one officer and the defendant was arrested by another? Was there more than one jurisdiction involved? Again I will refer you back to criminal law 101 or may I suggest reading New Jersey title 18, it's very informative. My personal opinion is maybe plea deals shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps all defendants should either plea guilty to the infraction stated on the summons and pay or go to trial, let the case stand on it's merits and have the judge find you either guilty or not guilty of the charge. My bet is that not too many people would like either option. Now for the cops writing cops summons issue. Is this the first time that you have heard about "Professional Courtesy"? I would think that is common knowledge in todays society. Police Officers showing discretion to other Police Officers and their family members and friends, is one of the few things that Police Officers have. It happens in all walks of society in varying degrees. Maybe your a little miffed that you don't have a P.B.A. card in your wallet, maybe your not! I agree that it should not be posted for all to see but like in any other profession there are people that shouldn't be working in certain fields. I will also say that there are circumstances where professional courtesy should not be extended. I've stopped P.O. family members that have given me P.B.A. cards and I thought the violation was bad enough to take the card from that person and send it back to the issuing officer with a note. I will tell you that many times it's the children of police officers that think having a P.B.A. card is a license to do as they please. Hopefully the parent sets them straight. By the way everybody that gets stopped for a M/V violation in this state does not get a ticket, many are issued warnings. Lastly now that you've peaked my curiosity, I will check in with a friend that's on the Jersey City Police Department and ask about the court charging defendants for officers to show up at trials. I'll have to get back to you on that one. In the interim may I suggest joining your local Law Enforcement Explorers program. It will give you a little insight on what it is being a Police Officer on a day to day basis.
it wouldn't be criminal law 101 if the laws varies from state to state and I really have no interest in the laws of this state in specific. I mentioned officers showing up on the same date as a friend mentioned that to me and it's for traffic court, not for any of the stuff that you mentioned. I think if they (chase, nacotics, etc) were the case, then it would've be criminal and more serious charges and wouldn't show up on traffic court date. On the "professional courtesy", I would like to disagree but that is my opinion and my opinion only. If there is too many "courtesy" given out in the world, we would have a extremely corrupt government and business world. In my work world, I know there is a lot of "courtesy" given out, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it as is. Let's leave it at that. About the program, I have no interest learning what it is like being an officer in what many considers to be the most corrupt state in the country. I think I learned enough as a kid growing up from my rural area's police force. I want to keep whatever clean image of police I have left in me as possible.

let's just agree to disagree on many of the issues between the 2 of us.
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Old 10-23-2007, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Central Jersey - Florida
3,314 posts, read 12,260,185 times
Reputation: 2094
Quote:
Originally Posted by va-jc View Post
it wouldn't be criminal law 101 if the laws varies from state to state and I really have no interest in the laws of this state in specific. I mentioned officers showing up on the same date as a friend mentioned that to me and it's for traffic court, not for any of the stuff that you mentioned. I think if they (chase, nacotics, etc) were the case, then it would've be criminal and more serious charges and wouldn't show up on traffic court date. On the "professional courtesy", I would like to disagree but that is my opinion and my opinion only. If there is too many "courtesy" given out in the world, we would have a extremely corrupt government and business world. In my work world, I know there is a lot of "courtesy" given out, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it as is. Let's leave it at that. About the program, I have no interest learning what it is like being an officer in what many considers to be the most corrupt state in the country. I think I learned enough as a kid growing up from my rural area's police force. I want to keep whatever clean image of police I have left in me as possible.

let's just agree to disagree on many of the issues between the 2 of us.
Very good. Will you be leaving soon?
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:49 PM
 
Location: NJ
173 posts, read 537,443 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by exhdo1 View Post
Very good. Will you be leaving soon?
Just got here, but will leave and move to nyc as soon as I transfer there. I always like to stay where I work so it won't matter how much I dislike it here, I will continue to live here until I transfer. Most likely move to Queens as alot of my friends are staying over there with only 1 or 2 here in Jersey City.

I think I have problems with governments in general so it's not surprise for me to complain about government. If you got me started on the federal government and it's agencies (treasury, white house, congress, sec, federal reserve, etc), I will go on all day.

But seriously, what is with you and that comment? Is it just me or the sarcasm again? =)

Last edited by va-jc; 10-23-2007 at 11:03 PM..
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Old 07-26-2010, 12:24 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,614 times
Reputation: 10
I had an accident as I bumped my van on another car taking left tuenn. Both cars are towed but no personal injuries. I got a ticket for carless driving. This is the first time ever happened. Whats next?
How much is fine and point?
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