More first-year teachers get $50K (tornado, budget, salary)

[fischfan13]

Alabama...New Jersey
Huge difference in the cost of living.
Huge difference in the pay scales of employment.
Bad example.

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by tahiti

depends on how much you make. i wouldn't expect a teacher to say they are overpaid at $50K.

Unfortunately, the bigger picture is continually missed here. $50k as a starting salary, plus the benefits.

For medical benefits only, the average NJ premium is $11k (found this out from my gf's sister last night, who is an accounting consultant - I'm sure I could get the paper where this is shown if someone is interested, but that doesn't seem outlandish to me). Thats medical only. Which means it doesn't include dental or vision, which cost annually an additional $3k per year.

Now, theres another difference. Teacher copay is $5 on prescriptions (in the article I posted), for others its usually $25. So these benefits actually would cost *more* in the private sector, considering the copay amounts. However, lets stick to just those numbers.

A $50,000/yr starting salary, with $14,000 annually for medical, dental, and vision included, is a $64,000 per year starting salary. STARTING. As in, the beginning. The point from where it goes up.

You know, the kind of "easy money" thats going to attract "book readers", and is obviously not comparable to a starting salary in the private sector. For example, a friend of mine is a recent hire, with a master's degree, graduating with honors, and will be going for his doctorate while working full time for the firm that just hired him - for $54,000/yr, company offering a benefits package, 15% paid by employer, 85% paid by employee (reasonable in today's market). Now, you want to compare $50k/yr to something? Well, lets take away the average payment for benefits - $14k - and someone with a masters degree, offered a job by several firms prior to graduation, and took the one with the *best offer*, is making $40k/yr with his medical and dental taken out (no vision plan).

So please, as opposed to debating the workload that the teachers have, or what "deserve" means, or the "future of the children", lets try and look at the simple facts. Teacher salaries at $40k/yr would be equitable to a starting salary of someone with a masters degree, who doesn't get a pension, and will have to contribute any and all retirement monies from that $40k.

Btw... JERSEY MAN, thanks. It really shows me (imho) that you're one of the cops who gives a s, and I (and I'm sure many others) like that.

NOTE: A study was done by NJ in 2005. See it here: http://www.nj.gov/benefitsreview/final_report.pdf

[natalayjones]

Originally Posted by fischfan13

Alabama...New Jersey
Huge difference in the cost of living.
Huge difference in the pay scales of employment.
Bad example.

Actually, I wasn't comparing the cost of living. However, I'm quite sure that residents of Alabama are saying 37K is a too much for teachers to be paid, just like Florida residents say 40K is too much. It doesn't matter how much the cost of living is in your state vs another state if your income doesn't allow you to live there.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by jersey79

Pittnurse70,

I agree, we should all focus more on what we like about our jobs. I love teaching. As hectic as my day maybe, I couldn't see myself doing anything else. I didn't mean to come off as belittling any other professions in my last post, or did I mean to infer that teaching is tougher than all other professions (it isn't). However, I have seen my profession belittled on several occasions by many who make much more money than I do, and sometimes I feel the need to clarify what many teachers do and put up with on a day to day basis. By the way, my mom was an emergency room nurse for many years, I have nothing but the utmost respect for nurses, and would not want to deal with the stresses that go along with their job (the same is true with other professions as well).

Thank you. For years, I complained about nursing, then I decided it was what I did, what I could do, and I should enjoy doing it. So I do.

[Katiana]

PS: I really do respect teachers, which I don't think came out in my comments of yesterday. Especially after my own kids went to school.

[tahiti]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

Unfortunately, the bigger picture is continually missed here. $50k as a starting salary, plus the benefits.

i'm not missing any picture. my statement was merely that a teacher being paid $50K is not overpaid. period - i could give a rat's a** if they are a first year, or 10 yr teacher. i've also around a little more than you, i'm well aware of benefits. i don't care - they are still not overpaid FOR THE JOB THEY DO. maybe when you have children you'll realize this.

Originally Posted by CuCullin

For medical benefits only, the average NJ premium is $11k (found this out from my gf's sister last night, who is an accounting consultant - I'm sure I could get the paper where this is shown if someone is interested, but that doesn't seem outlandish to me). Thats medical only. Which means it doesn't include dental or vision, which cost annually an additional $3k per year.

i feel for whoever pays over $1K per person per month for coverage. that's not my reality or anyone's reality i know. maybe i'm lucky. you're making it seem like that is the norm, and it's not. if you're saying that's the cost the company bears plus premium the employee bears, ok, but then you need to compare apples to apples when discussing salary between public and private sector. i know when i discuss salary, I don't sit there and go "oh well, then I need to add an additional $3600 per month to my salary because I pay $400 for family coverage and my employer kicks in the other $3600". i really think you need qualify that $14K number.

Originally Posted by CuCullin

Now, theres another difference. Teacher copay is $5 on prescriptions (in the article I posted), for others its usually $25. So these benefits actually would cost *more* in the private sector, considering the copay amounts. However, lets stick to just those numbers.

my guess is it's $10, but whatever.

Originally Posted by CuCullin

A $50,000/yr starting salary, with $14,000 annually for medical, dental, and vision included, is a $64,000 per year starting salary. STARTING. As in, the beginning. The point from where it goes up.

what if it's a family of 4? is the salary $106K a year? i think you're stretching here.

Originally Posted by CuCullin

You know, the kind of "easy money" thats going to attract "book readers", and is obviously not comparable to a starting salary in the private sector. For example, a friend of mine is a recent hire, with a master's degree, graduating with honors, and will be going for his doctorate while working full time for the firm that just hired him - for $54,000/yr, company offering a benefits package, 15% paid by employer, 85% paid by employee (reasonable in today's market). Now, you want to compare $50k/yr to something? Well, lets take away the average payment for benefits - $14k - and someone with a masters degree, offered a job by several firms prior to graduation, and took the one with the *best offer*, is making $40k/yr with his medical and dental taken out (no vision plan).

what does your friend have a master's in - certainly not something in high demand. in my field, that's pitiful. also, my company experience (a little more than yours) shows benefits are not as good as they used to be, but no way is it 85%. so your friend is paying $1200/mo for coverage?

Originally Posted by CuCullin

So please, as opposed to debating the workload that the teachers have, or what "deserve" means, or the "future of the children", lets try and look at the simple facts. Teacher salaries at $40k/yr would be equitable to a starting salary of someone with a masters degree, who doesn't get a pension, and will have to contribute any and all retirement monies from that $40k.

Future of the children means something to me. I place a higher value on what teachers do than say...what I do (and what 90% of the population does). I think they should be compensated for it. That's life and my opinion. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not informed.

BTW - i didn't read the article below - I will now.

NOTE: A study was done by NJ in 2005. See it here: http://www.nj.gov/benefitsreview/final_report.pdf [/quote]

[ATLater]

This post in no way is attacking you, but I get so many people telling me how high the cost of living is, so I wanted to share my input.

Originally Posted by fischfan13

Alabama...New Jersey
Huge difference in the cost of living.
Huge difference in the pay scales of employment.
Bad example.

You know people need to stop taking cost of living as a rule to die by, especially on websites. In places where the cost of living is high, for example New Jersey, the pay is high(er). In places where the cost of living is low, for example Alabama, the pay is lower.

These websites offer good general information, but it's not info to live by.

Salary in Middlesex-Monmouth NJ:
$50,000
Comparable salary in Atlanta GA:
$37,556.75

If you move from Middlesex-Monmouth NJ to Atlanta GA...
Groceries will cost:16.522%lessHousing will cost:44.971%lessUtilities will cost:18.899%lessTransportation will cost:2.035%lessHealthcare will cost:4.809%less

Okay, I'm going to use my personal life for example on this one.
So I make 37,556 a year. Assuming I work 40 hour weeks/52 weeks a year, that's about $18 an hour - which is nothing to sneeze at. But anyway I make about $2,888 a month before taxes - lets say I bring home $2,400 of that. So I have $2,400 a month.

My rent is $1,150 for my two bedroom as most two bdrm apartments are easily over $1000 here. So now I have $1,250. My car payment is a little under $200 and my insurance around $140. So now I have $910. Let say $300 for my electric, water, gas, cable and phone bills - and $300 is being modest. So now I have $610. It takes about $52 to fill up my tank and I fill up about 5 times a month - if I don't do any extra trips and public transportation is not as accesible as it is up there so driving is my only option if I wanna get there on time. So 5 times $52 is $260. That leaves me with $350. So lets say I use all the coupons in every newspaper I get my hands on and feed my family on $200. That leaves me $150 for the rest of the month.

That's assuming none of my kids are in daycare, or go to private school, or play any sports, or are going on any field trips. Or assuming it's no one has a birthday coming up or I don't want to take my partner out for dinner and a movie. Or my car doesn't break down. Or my daughter gets an ear infection and I have to shell out money for a co-pay and medication.

These cost of living calcualtors are based on averages and averages include the very bottom and the very top - those of us who live in the middle realize that for the most part cost-of-living is a bunch of crap.

[natalayjones]

Originally Posted by ATLater

These cost of living calcualtors are based on averages and averages include the very bottom and the very top - those of us who live in the middle realize that for the most part cost-of-living is a bunch of crap.

Actually, I wasn't even considering the cost of living. My point was that, I've always thought teachers were complaining that they weren't paid enough, not that they weren't appreciated. I wasn't trying to start a debate of "it costs more to live here so your point isn't valid".

I was merely stating, I've never gone to my mom and said "Gee, I'm really glad Mrs. Rogers took extra time to explain long division to me. It makes perfect sense now" but I have said "It's mrs. Rogers fault I'm failing. She goes to fast and when I hate to ask her for help because she makes me feel dumb"

Her comments just gave me some insight on myself as a student and I was just sharing my thoughts.

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by tahiti

i'm not missing any picture. my statement was merely that a teacher being paid $50K is not overpaid. period - i could give a rat's a** if they are a first year, or 10 yr teacher. i've also around a little more than you, i'm well aware of benefits. i don't care - they are still not overpaid FOR THE JOB THEY DO. maybe when you have children you'll realize this.

If they were doing a "good job", then the numbers would match up. NJ pays the most money of any state for schools - do we have the best of the best in end results?

Originally Posted by tahiti

i feel for whoever pays over $1K per person per month for coverage. that's not my reality or anyone's reality i know. maybe i'm lucky. you're making it seem like that is the norm, and it's not.

Average is "the norm". So yes, it is. I'll find out where the study is posted online.

Originally Posted by tahiti

i know when i discuss salary, I don't sit there and go "oh well, then I need to add an additional $3600 per month to my salary because I pay $400 for family coverage and my employer kicks in the other $3600".

I think you should. I took a job with a lower salary than my previous position, specifically because of the medical, dental, vision, and IRA (which included a safe harbor program) and a regimented bonus structure.

Originally Posted by tahiti

my guess is it's $10, but whatever.

Your guess for which? My copayment card says $25. My dads says $45. The article I posted previously states NJ teacher copay is $5. What guesswork is involved?

Originally Posted by tahiti

what if it's a family of 4? is the salary $106K a year? i think you're stretching here.

I don't get your comment at all.

Originally Posted by tahiti

what does your friend have a master's in - certainly not something in high demand.

Biochemical engineering.

Originally Posted by tahiti

in my field, that's pitiful. also, my company experience (a little more than yours) shows benefits are not as good as they used to be, but no way is it 85%. so your friend is paying $1200/mo for coverage?

Pre-tax dollars, yes.

Originally Posted by tahiti

Future of the children means something to me. I place a higher value on what teachers do than say...what I do (and what 90% of the population does). I think they should be compensated for it. That's life and my opinion. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not informed.

Opinion - exactly. I said lets stay away from that stuff because its subjective. However, what I'm talking about is quantifiable.

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

Unfortunately, the bigger picture is continually missed here. $50k as a starting salary...

Well yes, but just how high do you think it goes? One of the things you need to be careful of is looking past the starting pay to look at the actual scale. My fiancee will go from $43,000 to 43,600 next year-a whopping $23.00 or so more per pay check. Now again, NOT complaining-just keeping things based in reality. If she does not complete her master's degree (which she will, but lets just use this as an example) and stays in that district she will make $75,000 after 25 years. I believe 25 years with a masters degree will net her close to $90,000, but its a long, slow, climb to that point. Harping on the fact that $50K is the starting salary is misleading. The way it's being portrayed one would think that it doubles every year!

So let's say after 25 years in our respective careers my fiance and I are grossing $150K a year before taxes. Hopefully that will provide us with a comfortable living. We won't be driving brand new BMWs, living in an 8000 square foot McMansion and jetting off to Fiji every coulple of weeks, but we should have some cash in the bank and the mortgage should be paid every month. Let's stop purporting that teachers are getting filthy stinking rich off of tax dollars.

Just for comparison, my parents gross about $100K per year and are both near retirement age. They caught a few lucky breaks in life in that they were able to build their own home at a great savings due to my dad doing a great deal of the work, and the land was given to them by my grandparents. My brother and I also mostly financed our own college educations with some help from then. Even still, when my father retires from UPS in 2009, my mother will still need to work, and he will need to find some kind of income despite a pretty good pension from the Teamsters.

The bottom line? A household earning $150K is not exactly living like the Beverly Hillbillies...so its not outrageous to be paid $50,000 a year to educate New Jersey's children when you LIVE in New Jersey.