More first-year teachers get $50K (Jersey City: lawyer, loans, apartment)

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by fischfan13

Are any of you who are typing on your little cushy seat right now worried that the person sitting within 20 feet from you might have a knife in their shoe? Inner City teachers are worried about that. Are any of you people sitting in your nice little office worried that the 18 year old sophomore that someone is trying to teach might be high on crack? When parents don't give a damn about their kids then it all goes on the person that these kids spend most of their day with...their teachers.

I went to one of those schools. A few (thankfully not many) scars to show for it. Theres quite a few things wrong with those schools, but paying a teacher more money doesn't solve any of them.

Originally Posted by fischfan13

One more thing, being a newbie around here, do many of you people sit around and complain all day long about what other people make?

Nope. I complain about the money I don't take home, because its being spent poorly elsewhere. And we also talk about real estate. Sometimes.

[tahiti]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

If they were doing a "good job", then the numbers would match up. NJ pays the most money of any state for schools - do we have the best of the best in end results?



Average is "the norm". So yes, it is. I'll find out where the study is posted online.



I think you should. I took a job with a lower salary than my previous position, specifically because of the medical, dental, vision, and IRA (which included a safe harbor program) and a regimented bonus structure.



Your guess for which? My copayment card says $25. My dads says $45. The article I posted previously states NJ teacher copay is $5. What guesswork is involved?



I don't get your comment at all.



Biochemical engineering.



Pre-tax dollars, yes.



Opinion - exactly. I said lets stay away from that stuff because its subjective. However, what I'm talking about is quantifiable.

i can't comment on everything's that's been said since i posted, my head will explode. just a couple of things:

you say it costs $14K a yr per person for insurance. for a family of 4 that equals $56K. you can't seriously tell me that your friend, if she/he had a family of 4, would pay $47K a year.

and about opinion - isn't what this thread is all about? our opinion? what do I need to quantify in your view? i think they are worth $50K, plus bennies, period. there are reasons, for instance, doctors are paid more than garbage collectors - they are more highly valued in society. i place teachers near the very top in the "value" chain - society doesn't agree and I find that sad.

i also said in an earlier post i wouldn't mind doing away with tenure and moving towards a performance model. i don't think there's anyone here who disagrees with that. but it's a tricky nut to crack - how do you measure performance for teachers in cushy suburbs against those in inner cities? i don't have the answer.

bottom line IMHO, i can't get worked up about teachers making $50K a year (PLUS BENNIES ). When I see my kids come home from school and go on and on about how they love school and their teacher, and I see such tremendous growth in their reasoning skills every day - damn straight these ladies and men are worth every penny.

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by tahiti

you say it costs $14K a yr per person for insurance. for a family of 4 that equals $56K. you can't seriously tell me that your friend, if she/he had a family of 4, would pay $47K a year.

No, thats what a single person pays. Family of 4 gets you the family plan, which is discounted.

Originally Posted by tahiti

and about opinion - isn't what this thread is all about? our opinion? what do I need to quantify in your view? i think they are worth $50K, plus bennies, period. there are reasons, for instance, doctors are paid more than garbage collectors - they are more highly valued in society. i place teachers near the very top in the "value" chain - society doesn't agree and I find that sad.

And I disagree, I don't believe they are worth $50k plus benefits, regardless of performance, to start a job where after a few years you can't get rid of them for poor performance. And I won't change your opinion, and you won't change mine. But what we can discuss (since opinion's are personal) is what this means in a financial sense, comparatively, and what we get for our dollars.

Originally Posted by tahiti

i also said in an earlier post i wouldn't mind doing away with tenure and moving towards a performance model. i don't think there's anyone here who disagrees with that. but it's a tricky nut to crack - how do you measure performance for teachers in cushy suburbs against those in inner cities? i don't have the answer.

One standard performance model, but where the comparisons are within the municipalities prior years. Additionally, parental comments and such should be factored in. Each local administration should deal with this internally, while adhering to a minimum (not $50k to start) set by the state, and simple base requirements set by the state. Its impossible to realistically compare performance of a teach in an inner city district to a suburb, but its quite realistic to compare with other inner city schools, other schools with comparable statistics, and prior year performance.

Since the taxes we pay primarily go to local funding of schools in terms of school budgets, with a portion of the schools budgets coming from the state (about 20-30% iirc), this is easily accomplished.

Originally Posted by tahiti

bottom line IMHO, i can't get worked up about teachers making $50K a year (PLUS BENNIES ). When I see my kids come home from school and go on and on about how they love school and their teacher, and I see such tremendous growth in their reasoning skills every day - damn straight these ladies and men are worth every penny.

And when I see my sister come home from school, and ask me questions on geometry because her teacher wouldn't answer her, I don't think she's worth the paper I'd write "You're Fired!!" on. Since my sister is very bright, I can't see how its possible that she could struggle with some homework. After answering what amounts to basic math questions (in the current case, calculus), she whizzes through her work.

I'm not her teacher, but I'm teaching her more than the ones getting paid to do just that. Would you like to be home schooling your kids after they've gone to the public school you've paid for, with teachers whose salary is paid for by your taxes? I'm just happy that my brother and I can answer her questions so she isn't left behind.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by Lillietta

Our "mantra" is that parents want what is best for their kids.


Pittnurse, I do believe parents want what is best for their kids in a medical situation. No problem there! But, I do believe that parents THINK they know what is best for their kids.i.e. when teachers are trying to educate their children. Teachers all over the country (especially in the suburbs) are dealing with many (not all) parents of this generation who baby their kids which hinders the teaching process - parents complain "too much homework", "why couldn't my child go out at recess?" etc etc. Most of the stuff teachers face are not big issues but a constant barrage of anger over small things from parents.

We in health care have a similar situation. (No, I am not trying to "one-up" you or say "if you think you've got problems. . . ", I am just trying to explain myself.) Parents who immunize their kids want what's best for their kids; parents who don't immunize want the same thing, etc. We have to keep reminiding ourselves, on a regular basis, that parents who disagree with us still want what's best for their kids. We get parents who call in and ask for prescriptions for certain meds to be phoned in to a pharmacy w/o us seeing their kids, parents who do their own diagnosing, parents who read all kinds of stuff, both good and bad, on the internet. It is our job to do what we think is right, to the extent possible. We won't call in prescriptions for antibiotics w/o seeing the child. If a parent doesn't want to immunize, we give them literature about the vaccines and hope they change their minds. Those are just two examples.

My point is that educators need to have this attitude as well. I think most do, especially those that have kids themselves.

[natalayjones]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

And when I see my sister come home from school, and ask me questions on geometry because her teacher wouldn't answer her, I don't think she's worth the paper I'd write "You're Fired!!" on. Since my sister is very bright, I can't see how its possible that she could struggle with some homework. After answering what amounts to basic math questions (in the current case, calculus), she whizzes through her work.

I'm not her teacher, but I'm teaching her more than the ones getting paid to do just that. Would you like to be home schooling your kids after they've gone to the public school you've paid for, with teachers whose salary is paid for by your taxes? I'm just happy that my brother and I can answer her questions so she isn't left behind.

This is OT but have you tried talking to the teacher and expressing your concerns? I'm not doubting that your sister is bright, but there are various reasons she might not be receiving the help she needs. Maybe the teacher is aware of how bright she is and assumes she doesn't need help. Maybe your sister isn't asking questions because the other kids are aware of how bright she is and she doesn't want to look otherwise. There is a world of difference between what happens in the classrom and what happens at home.

There was a period of time when I was in middle school where I couldn't see the blackboard. Rather, than tell my teacher or my mother that I probably needed glasses - I just didn't do the assignments and when I received a failing progress report I told my mom the teacher didn't like me.

If you have talked to the teacher, take it to the prinicpal. Get her in another class with a different teacher. Ask if they have a tutoring program that will help her catch up. Like you said, you're paying for her public schooling, might as well take advantage of your resources.

I'm just saying, I was in public school for 13 years and in college for 5 and I think I only ran across 2 or 3 teachers who it was obvious they didn't care. And those were in high school and the "senior fluff" courses like Pottery & Creative Writing and I didn't really care either.

[fischfan13]

I went to one of those schools. A few (thankfully not many) scars to show for it. Theres quite a few things wrong with those schools, but paying a teacher more money doesn't solve any of them.

Then how do you pay people to teach in a war zone?
Would you take 25k for a job in Bedminster or 25k for a job in Newark if you lived in between both places?

[ATLater]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

I went to one of those schools. A few (thankfully not many) scars to show for it. Theres quite a few things wrong with those schools, but paying a teacher more money doesn't solve any of them.

You know I hate to call anyone a liar but your life seems to be a little odd to me. You claim you went to a rough school but you had awful teachers. In my experience, the teachers who teach at those rough schools are usually the better teachers. The ones who are determined to make a difference, even if it's only one student. They have to love their profession because everyday they are putting their lives in danger.

Those who just want easy pay and summers off usually head for schools that are much less demanding, do they not?

I'm wondering if it wasn't that you had crappy teachers, but that you were a crappy student?

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by natalayjones

This is OT but have you tried talking to the teacher and expressing your concerns? I'm not doubting that your sister is bright, but there are various reasons she might not be receiving the help she needs. Maybe the teacher is aware of how bright she is and assumes she doesn't need help. Maybe your sister isn't asking questions because the other kids are aware of how bright she is and she doesn't want to look otherwise. There is a world of difference between what happens in the classrom and what happens at home.

Yup! The reply I got from this one was "Well maybe she isn't reading the assigned chapters." When I explained that the book wasn't exactly good at explaining the formulas, she just said this was how she's been teaching for years.

So I complained to the Principal, who I've known since he was my wrestling coach in middle school. He has gotten many complaints, but doesn't have any solutions for me.

Originally Posted by fischfan13

Then how do you pay people to teach in a war zone?
Would you take 25k for a job in Bedminster or 25k for a job in Newark if you lived in between both places?

Wouldn't you rather have the problems fixed, without resorting to throwing money at teachers?

I would.

Originally Posted by ATLater

You know I hate to call anyone a liar but your life seems to be a little odd to me. You claim you went to a rough school but you had awful teachers. In my experience, the teachers who teach at those rough schools are usually the better teachers. The ones who are determined to make a difference, even if it's only one student. They have to love their profession because everyday they are putting their lives in danger.

Born and raised in Elizabeth, moved to Clark later. My teachers in Elizabeth were much better, imho.

Originally Posted by ATLater

I'm wondering if it wasn't that you had crappy teachers, but that you were a crappy student?

Ah, there you go. Can't debate the math, so debate the person.

Well... I don't remember my GPA, its been a bit too long. I was in mostly honors and AP courses for those that had them (math, science, english), where the majority were good teachers. Outside of that, they mostly weren't. I did, to be candid, have a habit of correcting teachers who said something inaccurate. In the AP and honors courses, this was generally well-received, though I usually needed to provide my proofs.

So what I'm wondering is, do you have a point to make with regards to teachers, or are you just so bored with your life that you'd like someone to not like on a web-based forum on the internet?

[natalayjones]

Originally Posted by Cucllin

So what I'm wondering is, do you have a point to make with regards to teachers, or are you just so bored with your life that you'd like someone to not like on a web-based forum on the internet?

That's everyone's goal on this board isn't it? To cyber-fight?

Originally Posted by fischfan13

It makes a huge difference. It makes a big enough difference that many kids out of college end up moving out of the little house in the burbs that their parents bought so that they can live somewhere where they can make some M-O-N-E-Y.
BTW, lets get back to the matter at hand...

No it doesn't make a huge difference. The question at hand was not if 50K is a lot of money in NJ or Alabama the question was is 50K a lot of money for a person right out of college with no work experience.

The question was not is 50K enough to live off in NJ or Alabama, the question was looking at other professions that hire college graduates with no work experience, how did teachers measure up?

Being a recent college grad and having sat through numerous of workforce lectures where they tell you how much your degree is worth in various fields, and states - most entry-level jobs MEANING YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS JOB BEFORE IN YOUR LIFE; YOU JUST HAVE A PIECE OF PAPER THAT SAYS YOU CAN start in the 30's and possibly low 40's..shocker to you EVEN IN NEW JERSEY. In most professions they actually expect you to gain some work experience and show some worth before you get promotions.

No one said 50K is a lot of money, no one said they don't deserve 50K, no one said anything except she thought it was extreme and that her is her opinion.

Aside from all that, you got so busy informing me of the M-O-N-E-Y differences between two states, that you ignored the fact that I said "I always thought teachers biggest complaint was that they are underpaid - I never knew they felt unappreciated"

Now if there is a different definition of appreciation that I'm unaware of because we don't use it in Florida, please enlighten me.

[Ibginnie]

I taught high school in Virginia for 12 years. The school was built to accommodate 1200 students. When I left the student population was close to 2500. My salary was 38000 when I left the profession.

Monday- Friday
5:30 wake up
6:30 leave for school
7:00 arrive at school
7:00-8:00 attend meetings with parents, other teachers, IEPs, and students
8:05 11:20 classes
11:21-11:45 lesson planning and lunch
11:50-2:35 classes
2:45-5:00 after school classes and help for students and parents that didn't understand the subject matter (math) btw no stipend for these classes
5:10 leave for home IF there were no after school duties that are included in the contract. ie: bus duty, hall monitoring, faculty meetings etc.
5:40 arrive home, get dinner started, talk to MY kids eat dinner
6:30-8:00 get on line with students and parents via AOL instant messenger
8:10-11:00 mark papers & tests and plan for the next day.
11:30 bed

Saturday and Sunday
Try to get the house and yard clean. Field phone calls from students and parents. More lesson planning and marking.

Now that is not to mention grading periods eight times a year. That takes a great deal of time.

The students' last day of school was not my last day. We were required to be there for an extra week to close out all grades, make plans for the following school year and clean and empty our classrooms.

After ONE week off we were REQUIRED to come back to school and prepare for the next year (curriculum writing), attend seminars and attend CE classes. Which puts us into August. Two weeks before start of school we went in and got our rosters. We had to meet with guidance and look at files of all students on our rolls. If we got kids with IEPs or 504s we were required to meet with those kids and parents to write a plan of action for EACH one of those students. If and student with a 504 had a possible emergent medical condition we were REQUIRED to sit with the school nurse and learn about that condition and how to handle it if the need should arise.

I'm sure I forgot to mention some of the other things that we were REQUIRED to do per our contract. I know it's not NJ schools but I can't imagine teaching anywhere without this amount of time put in and the commitment that went into MY experience. Oh and tenure??? LOL It's there but it's not. They CAN and do get rid of who they want when they want and they really don't have to give a reason.

In the end what I'm saying is that ALL jobs require more than what we may know about them. So, 50,000. is not outrageous to me. Wish I had got that for all my time and efforts.

BTW...a school with 2500 students is not without danger. There were daily fights and alot of drugs. I even had my arm broken by a student that wasn't even disciplined for it. I declined the benefits as my husband was military and I could get care at the military base. I didn't see the need of "double dipping" in this regard. My pay did not reflect the difference. I just may teach when I get back to Jersey.