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Old 04-29-2014, 02:05 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,542 posts, read 17,779,894 times
Reputation: 3681

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
no, my assumption was the stimulus spending drastically increased spending and that spending has permanently raised the baseline of federal spending. you say its "multifaceted" and other increases cant be stopped. I wonder what was the point of a stimulus if regular spending was just going to increase by that much anyway.

haha, wow. the problem is that when you make the claim that deportations are up under Obama; you are comparing them to numbers that have different components. its a lie. the numbers aren't really up. but you are so good at pretending it isn't.

I think you are asking for a lot of specifics given you give no support for anything you say. I have shown what I needed to show which is a constant increase in spending. im not going to go line by line looking for specific spending allocations.
of course you're not going to look at specific spending, because it doesn't support the point you're trying to make.

The purpose of the stimulus spending was an additional jolt above and beyond already planned spending. Sad that you don't understand how that works. But not surprised.

I didn't make any claims about deportations. But keep going with your assumptions. Bottom line is the border is more secure today than 10 years ago and net immigration is lowe than it's ever been - no matter how you count it.
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Old 04-29-2014, 02:29 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,799 posts, read 28,676,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
doesn't counter the fact that Medicare is more efficient than private health insurance. but ok.
you never supported your "fact." this may surprise you but your posts aren't automatically considered facts. you like to request a lot of back up but fail to ever give any without a lot of prodding.
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Old 04-29-2014, 02:33 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,799 posts, read 28,676,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
of course you're not going to look at specific spending, because it doesn't support the point you're trying to make.

The purpose of the stimulus spending was an additional jolt above and beyond already planned spending. Sad that you don't understand how that works. But not surprised.

I didn't make any claims about deportations. But keep going with your assumptions. Bottom line is the border is more secure today than 10 years ago and net immigration is lowe than it's ever been - no matter how you count it.
it doesn't? the overall trend is increased spending so if I looked at specific spending, there must be plenty of places where its going up.

I think we all understand that theory, however that doesn't explain why the spending has permanently increased our spending levels rather than being a termporary "jolt."

bottom line? once again a statement with no support. previously, the Obama deportation numbers are what was used to support a statement like yours. but now that we know it was an intentional deception, what would you use to support your statement?

Last edited by CaptainNJ; 04-29-2014 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 04-29-2014, 03:36 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,542 posts, read 17,779,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
you never supported your "fact." this may surprise you but your posts aren't automatically considered facts. you like to request a lot of back up but fail to ever give any without a lot of prodding.
Top six myths about Medicare | Reuters

Medicare Is More Efficient Than Private Insurance | Physicians for a National Health Program

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...far-lower-pri/

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...ype=blogs&_r=0
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Old 04-29-2014, 03:41 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,542 posts, read 17,779,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
it doesn't? the overall trend is increased spending so if I looked at specific spending, there must be plenty of places where its going up.

I think we all understand that theory, however that doesn't explain why the spending has permanently increased our spending levels rather than being a termporary "jolt."

bottom line? once again a statement with no support. previously, the Obama deportation numbers are what was used to support a statement like yours. but now that we know it was an intentional deception, what would you use to support your statement?
The main areas spending is increasing YoY - Medicare. Social Security. Defense.

The stimulus didn't permanently increase our spending. You're trying to tie a one time expense (spread over about 4 years, I believe).

For one, 30% of it was tax cuts, not actual outflow of dollars being spent by the government on things - Stewart claims that the stimulus bill is one-third tax cuts | PolitiFact

Here's a breakdown of the stimulus spending: Stimulus:*How Fast We're Spending Nearly $800 Billion | ProPublica

and here's another interesting read on it: ‘Everything people think they know about the stimulus is wrong’
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Old 04-29-2014, 03:50 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,799 posts, read 28,676,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
The main areas spending is increasing YoY - Medicare. Social Security. Defense.

The stimulus didn't permanently increase our spending. You're trying to tie a one time expense (spread over about 4 years, I believe).

For one, 30% of it was tax cuts, not actual outflow of dollars being spent by the government on things - Stewart claims that the stimulus bill is one-third tax cuts | PolitiFact

Here's a breakdown of the stimulus spending: Stimulus:*How Fast We're Spending Nearly $800 Billion | ProPublica

and here's another interesting read on it: ‘Everything people think they know about the stimulus is wrong’
you are a master of the bs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
2011 United States federal budget – $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)
2010 United States federal budget – $3.6 trillion (submitted 2009 by President Obama)
2009 United States federal budget – $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush)
2008 United States federal budget – $2.9 trillion (submitted 2007 by President Bush)
so from 2008 to 2011, our federal government's spending increased by $900 billion or 31% primarily because of increases in medicare, social security and defense?
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Old 04-29-2014, 06:08 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 1,948,559 times
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yes medicare, ss and defense were the primary increased spending in the federal budget
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:19 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,799 posts, read 28,676,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1944 View Post
yes medicare, ss and defense were the primary increased spending in the federal budget
they are very large by dollar amounts, but all three of those items increased by less than the total increase of 31%.

also, increased military spending is consistent with my position that once you increase government spending, you are always stuck with the higher spending.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:13 PM
 
Location: NJ
136 posts, read 178,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
they are very large by dollar amounts, but all three of those items increased by less than the total increase of 31%.

also, increased military spending is consistent with my position that once you increase government spending, you are always stuck with the higher spending.
Lets do some math!!!

Stimulus: $114 billion spent in FY 2009 Source

Automatic stabilizers: Increased from $21 billion in 2008 to $334 billion in 2009 and further to 389 billion in 2010 Source/Source (source also for Automatic stabilizers (p.117))

We dealt with Tarp spending in 2009 which I am not accounting for due to the absence of a firm figure (roughly around $40 billion is what I came up with)

Spending increased from $2,982 billion in 2008 to $3,517 billion in 2009 a jump of $535 billion. Source

When excluding the Stimulus spending and spending resulting from automatic stabilizers the Federal Government increased spending $110 Billion which is only a 3.6% increase from the 2008 budget

The CBO estimates that we continue to pay approx. $450 billion in automatic stabilizers yearly and will continue doing do through (though decreasingly) 2015

Are these facts enough for you?

(Also the way you put forward the yearly spending numbers is highly misleading. Those totals don't accurately reflect yearly outlays)

Last edited by bhsx1187; 04-29-2014 at 11:25 PM.. Reason: Corrected figures
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:58 PM
 
Location: NJ
136 posts, read 178,430 times
Reputation: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
you are a master of the bs.

2011 United States federal budget – $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)
2010 United States federal budget – $3.6 trillion (submitted 2009 by President Obama)
2009 United States federal budget – $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush)
2008 United States federal budget – $2.9 trillion (submitted 2007 by President Bush)

so from 2008 to 2011, our federal government's spending increased by $900 billion or 31% primarily because of increases in medicare, social security and defense?
No sir, this is factually incorrect as well.

2008 federal outlays: $2982.5 Billion Source
2011 Federal outlays: 3,603.1 Billion
2013 Federal outlays: 3,454.6 Billion

2011 was the highest spending year so the numbers are inflated when used in 2014 but let's use them for argument's sake. Federal government spending increased by 620.6 Billion dollars from 2008 to 2011, an increase of 20.8%. As I just pointed out, the major cause for an increase in spending in Automatic Stabilizers which in 2008 totaled $21 Billion and in 2011 totaled $367 Billion, an increase of $346 Billion. Excluding those, spending increased only 253.6 Billion in 4 years, in the depths of the worst recession in 80 years.

Let us continue

Estimated 2008 Defense, Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid spending (source(p. 52))
Medicare: $454 Billion
Social Security: $611 Billion
Medicaid: $208 Billion
Defense: $572 Billion

Actual 2011 Defense, Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid spending (source(p. 5))
Medicare: $560 Billion
Social Security: $725 Billion
Medicaid: $275 Billion
Defense: $700 Billion

This represents an increase in $415 Billion in four years. I am not foolish and realize there is overlap and welfare programs serve in part as automatic stabilizers. Between just the automatic stabilizers and military spending that is an increase of $474 billion accounting for all but $146 billion of the federal expenditure increase. The remainder of which is primarily a result of increased entitlement spending and stimulus dollars.

I look forward to your rebuttal Captain as I hope I provided more than enough facts for your taste

Last edited by bhsx1187; 04-30-2014 at 12:04 AM.. Reason: Grammar
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