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We get it, clearly ANY kind of sick, abusive, or dangerous act is OK as long as its done in the name of fellowship and brotherhood As someone who never had the fraternity experience, I never really understood the animus some people harbored against them, but now I'm starting to. You still didn't answer my question about when these types of acts are committed against random strangers outside of the fraternity context-are they then considered crimes? Why or why not?
Context is everything. Are our troops guilty of murder for vanquishing "enemies" in war time? Are Catholics cannibals for eating the body and blood of Christ every week? Again I'm not advocating this behavior, just stating why I'm not as horrified by it as all of you.
Context is everything. Are our troops guilty of murder for vanquishing "enemies" in war time?
You're really going to equate killing the enemy in war with murder?
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Originally Posted by tdstyles
Are Catholics cannibals for eating the body and blood of Christ every week?
As a practicing Catholic, I'll let you in on a little secret, it's actually bread and wine.
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Originally Posted by tdstyles
Again I'm not advocating this behavior, just stating why I'm not as horrified by it as all of you.
So your answer is that if a "civilian" does these things it's a horrible crime and they should be punished. If a member of a fraternity or sports team does it, it's a sacred tradition. When I first saw the reports in the media about the Sayreville parents who thought this was no big deal, I thought "Where the hell do these people come from?" Now I know. I don't know how old your kids are, but good luck if they ever get caught doing these things...
You're really going to equate killing the enemy in war with murder?
Ummm no, that was exactly my point. Context.
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As a practicing Catholic, I'll let you in on a little secret, it's actually bread and wine.
Bread and wine that we pretend are flesh and blood. That's not sick out of context?
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So your answer is that if a "civilian" does these things it's a horrible crime and they should be punished. If a member of a fraternity or sports team does it, it's a sacred tradition.
My argument is that context is everything.
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]When I first saw the reports in the media about the Sayreville parents who thought this was no big deal, I thought "Where the hell do these people come from?" Now I know. I don't know how old your kids are, but good luck if they ever get caught doing these things...
Hazing is an ugly, unnecessary practice. All three of my sons played football, and went to the playoffs, but the school had a strict no-hazing policy, and it was adhered to.
The coaches share culpability at Sayreville. It seems doubtful this is the first year hazing occurred, and it should have been stopped as soon as it started.
Hazing is an ugly, unnecessary practice. All three of my sons played football, and went to the playoffs, but the school had a strict no-hazing policy, and it was adhered to.
The coaches share culpability at Sayreville. It seems doubtful this is the first year hazing occurred, and it should have been stopped as soon as it started.
I agree it can be ugly and at the high school level both unacceptable and unnecessary. They are minors after all but if adults over the age of 18 choose to engage in these activities of their own free will than I don't see any harm, even knowing full well that there will always be times when a line is crossed.
I agree it can be ugly and at the high school level both unacceptable and unnecessary. They are minors after all but if adults over the age of 18 choose to engage in these activities of their own free will than I don't see any harm, even knowing full well that there will always be times when a line is crossed.
So in college, you envision that this behavior could be acceptable and necessary?
Suddenly it would be OK for a college freshman to be held down by 4 seniors, have a finger shoved where the sun don't shine and then have that finger shoved in his mouth? How exactly would this ever be considered done under "free will" and exactly how is consent communicated?
So in college, you envision that this behavior could be acceptable and necessary?
Suddenly it would be OK for a college freshman to be held down by 4 seniors, have a finger shoved where the sun don't shine and then have that finger shoved in his mouth? How exactly would this ever be considered done under "free will" and exactly how is consent communicated?
Consent to me would be participating in a program or organization where there is an established history of hazing. Like most sports programs and fraternity/sororities.
I'll say it again I'm not pro hazing, it's just something I can't personally condemn because I participated in activities like these. I didn't enjoy them, who would? But I did enjoy the fraternity experience as a whole and since this was part of it, as a rational pragmatist, I have to conclude that they contributed to my overall experience. I am still close friends with most of the guys I pledged with and that was almost 20 years ago. Looking at it with my 38 year old eyes do these things seem crazy and absurd? Sure. At the time they just seemed like part of life and it was an overall very happy time.
Consent to me would be participating in a program or organization where there is an established history of hazing. Like most sports programs and fraternity/sororities.
I'll say it again I'm not pro hazing, it's just something I can't personally condemn because I participated in activities like these. I didn't enjoy them, who would? But I did enjoy the fraternity experience as a whole and since this was part of it, as a rational pragmatist, I have to conclude that they contributed to my overall experience. I am still close friends with most of the guys I pledged with and that was almost 20 years ago. Looking at it with my 38 year old eyes do these things seem crazy and absurd? Sure. At the time they just seemed like part of life and it was an overall very happy time.
That is perhaps the weakest apologist nonsense I've ever read.
That is perhaps the weakest apologist nonsense I've ever read.
I was not apologizing for anything or anyone. I'm simply stating an alternative perspective. In this case one that no one on this board agrees with or has interest in understanding. Apparently this thread is just a forum for people to sound off on how terrible this is and debate which level of hell these kids should be sentenced to for these as of yet unsubstantiated claims. So I'll stop muddying the waters with my contrarian nonsense and let you all get back to it! I'll hop back in when someone wants to know where to live within an hour commute of the city with good schools, low crime and a great downtown.
Last edited by Goldendoodle1969; 10-09-2014 at 03:06 PM..
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As someone who never had the fraternity experience, I never really understood the animus some people harbored against them, but now I'm starting to. You still didn't answer my question about when these types of acts are committed against random strangers outside of the fraternity context-are they then considered crimes? Why or why not?
