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Old 01-16-2017, 07:46 PM
 
200 posts, read 155,034 times
Reputation: 239

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Wait a minute...Texas actually has some of the highest property tax rates in the country. higher than NJ on average (but with much lower home values)

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...edian_rate.jpg

Edit: Nevermind, Texas has THE highest property tax rate in the entire country, on average.

Quote:
You're still not reading the material obviously. The rankings list more than graduation rates, per pupil spending, and preschools. It is most notably stating the results on the National Assessment of Educational Progress. Spending $10k to boost graduation rates may not be worth it, but how about getting the percentages above only a 1/4 of the states' 8th graders proficient in reading and math? That's a shameful result in a 1st world nation.
You have no evidence that having low taxes is what leads to that 1/4th proficiency. It is likely other factors, like spanish being a first language for about 1/3rd of residents. Especially since TX actually has the highest property tax rates in the country...
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:53 PM
 
229 posts, read 250,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus View Post
Yes those schools would rank better than average if they were in NJ. Go check any metric you like, from SAT scores to college admissions, etc. Get out of your bubble. And i'm saying this as a person who LIKES many areas of NJ and will probably move to one. But don't be so blind as to think property tax money is being spent wisely or that blindly increasing funding automatically increases education outcomes. That has been debunked.
I wouldn't say increased funding automatically guarantees increased results. But the numbers suggest better funded places do tend to do better. And you've got to do an apples to apples comparison. I'm sure TX could place a few schools in NJ's top 100 list. But TX's best would not be in the same league as NJ's best with places like #1 Princeton (5th best in the U.S.) #2 Milburn (14th), #7 Ridgewood (69th), etc. Shout out to my town Rutherford, coming in at 85 in NJ's top 100. My tax dollars at work - sorry couldn't resist.

Top 100 N.J. School Districts In 2016, Plus National Rankings - Brick, NJ Patch

Whether property tax money is being wisely spent, I can't say. I haven't seen town budgets, so I don't know what they do with it all. What I can say is that in Rutherford, I'm getting good schools, sanitation services, lots of activities for the kiddies, cops/fire/ambulance come in 5 min. or less when called, and the town even removes huge trees that have grown too close to your house when you call them. Would I like my taxes to be much less? Of course. But low taxes in exchange for middling schools and a long wait after a 911 call wouldn't cut it.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:15 PM
 
175 posts, read 221,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanJ View Post
Fight rankings because they are a total scam to get tax $$$, that's why. NJ has "good" schools" but that doesn't justify the absurd taxes. Well Mass topped that list and they also have high incomes. Also NJ is better at a lot of stuff than just schools...
Massachusetts is a MUCH better run state than NJ....I used to live there (and oh do I wish I still did!) and you can't even compare the the two. Far less corrupt than NJ and for all the "Taxachusetts" jokes, Mass is a much more fiscally conservative/responsible state. Also a lot more forward thinking and willing to think outside the box to develop feasible solutions to complex problems.

The states are similar in that they both have "home rule" municipalities which provide most services to its residents, but the county government in Mass is essentially nonexistent. Most of the counties have been abolished and the rest only provide regional services like court houses, prisons, etc. This means that 100% of your property taxes stay within your town/city, rather than being redistributed from wealthy to poorer areas within the same county as happens in NJ.

Another factor is the general culture of self-reliance up north. Most people in New England don't want or need the local government doing things for them that they could do themselves. Most towns in Mass do not provide non-essential services like trash pickup, fire departments are often volunteer staffed, and town government is very bare bones. The people running the town usually do not make more than a couple thousand / year in their position, so it's usually served in addition to a full-time job, or done by retirees, stay-at-home parents, etc. This obviously further reduces the overall property tax burden and frees up more funds for schools. A lot of the school districts are regional between several towns, again widening your tax base.

Mass municipalities are generally much larger than in NJ. The two states are roughly the same size and yet NJ has 560+ municipalities whereas Mass has around 300. Why NJ has so many 1 sq mi towns is beyond me, but explains the exorbitant property taxes quite a bit.

Mass also simply does not have highly concentrated poverty on the level of Newark/Camden/etc. which receive the bulk of the income tax revenue in NJ. It has its fair share of poorer areas, but since towns in Mass are much larger in land area and school districts are frequently regional, there is just more tax revenue to draw on compared to NJ.

I could go on, but having lived in both, it really is noticeable how clueless this state is in terms of the way government is structured.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:15 PM
 
229 posts, read 250,154 times
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus View Post
But wait, according to Craig D that 10k should buy the kids in Woodbridge a top flight education and some really stellar "services".

*Sits back and watches the entire premise go up in flames*
A $10k tax levy in central/northern coastal NJ is relatively cheap. Just sayin'. And of course on a town by town basis, the premise isn't always true compared to a state level analysis. I'm not too familiar with Woodbridge Township, but my understating is that it has over 100k people and consists of ten towns: woodbridge, avenel, fords, colonia, hopelawn, keasbey, iselin, menlo park terrace, sewaren and port reading. I imagine the demographics can vary widely among them.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:26 PM
 
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I think that NJ should rid of county governments since most, if not all, municipalities have their own anyway. Anything that may not or is too small should be absorbed. We should also rid of county PDs; I think only a few counties (like mine) have them but IMO they're completely useless when, again, every municipality runs itself and basically has its own force, plus counties have Sheriff's offices too, which is NOT the same as the countywide PD. State police can and do cover those more rural areas that do not have local services.

This usually is met with more controversy, but I think some towns can combine PDs, FDs, and EMT services to save money. My town doesn't need the tall ladder trucks it has or the sheer number of diverse police cars and vehicles we have. We just don't; we can share to cut down on taxpayer dollars being used (read: wasted). Small, safe towns often don't need the amount of services they have; they have too much. There is definitely stuff NJ can do, and I'm sure many residents would support some of these (and more) measures. I file this stuff under "if I ever become governor." *sigh*
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:30 PM
 
175 posts, read 221,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strato58 View Post
Im happy to say im finally getting out of this state this year. Taxes are a big reason but not the only reason I want out of here. Over $10,000 for a very moderate home in miserable Woodbridge twp.
Good for you. No knock on the folks who live there, but that whole area near Woodbridge and surrounding towns is uniquely awful: polluted environment, terrible air quality, ridiculous amounts of traffic, takes forever to drive anywhere, etc. One of the least natural feeling places I have ever been to....it's has all the concrete and development of NYC without any of the benefits. I can't even imagine paying a quarter that much to live there. Prime example of NJ being a "rip off" state.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:39 PM
 
229 posts, read 250,154 times
Reputation: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanJ View Post
Wait a minute...Texas actually has some of the highest property tax rates in the country. higher than NJ on average (but with much lower home values)

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...edian_rate.jpg

Edit: Nevermind, Texas has THE highest property tax rate in the entire country, on average.



You have no evidence that having low taxes is what leads to that 1/4th proficiency. It is likely other factors, like spanish being a first language for about 1/3rd of residents. Especially since TX actually has the highest property tax rates in the country...
That chart is from 2008. Don't you think it's a bit out of date? The average rate in TX is actually now about 1.81% compared to 2.19% in NJ. Also, tax rate is but a portion of how taxes are calculated. The assessment of the property is a big factor, and as you correctly surmised, NJ real estate is a hell of a lot more valuable than TX real estate. So even if you compared a NJ and TX town with the same exact tax rate, homeowners in the NJ town is still paying thousands more. TX has high rates, but low values.

You can draw any conclusions you want from the numbers, but the facts are that in most cases, the most poorly funded states are producing students with the lowest proficiency in basic educational skills. Louisiana is a notable exception. As for a language barrier being a cause, how many native Spanish speakers do you suppose are in such poorly performing states as Idaho (47th), Mississippi (49th), Oklahoma (46th), Alabama (45th) Louisiana (43), and Arkansas (40)? Language isn't the issue, poverty is. Southern states are in most cases very poor due to low wages, relatively uneducated populaces, and a relative lack of employment opportunities.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:47 PM
 
229 posts, read 250,154 times
Reputation: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I think that NJ should rid of county governments since most, if not all, municipalities have their own anyway. Anything that may not or is too small should be absorbed. We should also rid of county PDs; I think only a few counties (like mine) have them but IMO they're completely useless when, again, every municipality runs itself and basically has its own force, plus counties have Sheriff's offices too, which is NOT the same as the countywide PD. State police can and do cover those more rural areas that do not have local services.

This usually is met with more controversy, but I think some towns can combine PDs, FDs, and EMT services to save money. My town doesn't need the tall ladder trucks it has or the sheer number of diverse police cars and vehicles we have. We just don't; we can share to cut down on taxpayer dollars being used (read: wasted). Small, safe towns often don't need the amount of services they have; they have too much. There is definitely stuff NJ can do, and I'm sure many residents would support some of these (and more) measures. I file this stuff under "if I ever become governor." *sigh*
The county governments aren't the problem, it's all the separate municipalities funding their own services. Fun fact: NJ, the 4th smallest state by land area has 565 municipalities. CA, the 3rd biggest state has 482.
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:04 PM
 
200 posts, read 155,034 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by goeagles77 View Post
Massachusetts is a MUCH better run state than NJ....I used to live there (and oh do I wish I still did!) and you can't even compare the the two. Far less corrupt than NJ and for all the "Taxachusetts" jokes, Mass is a much more fiscally conservative/responsible state. Also a lot more forward thinking and willing to think outside the box to develop feasible solutions to complex problems.

The states are similar in that they both have "home rule" municipalities which provide most services to its residents, but the county government in Mass is essentially nonexistent. Most of the counties have been abolished and the rest only provide regional services like court houses, prisons, etc. This means that 100% of your property taxes stay within your town/city, rather than being redistributed from wealthy to poorer areas within the same county as happens in NJ.

....
Interesting post. It's a bit strange that Mass is so fiscally responsible yet so blue in elections...I guess it's the cultural blue. Reminds me of NH as well.

Quote:
That chart is from 2008. Don't you think it's a bit out of date? The average rate in TX is actually now about 1.81% compared to 2.19% in NJ. Also, tax rate is but a portion of how taxes are calculated. The assessment of the property is a big factor, and as you correctly surmised, NJ real estate is a hell of a lot more valuable than TX real estate. So even if you compared a NJ and TX town with the same exact tax rate, homeowners in the NJ town is still paying thousands more. TX has high rates, but low values.

You can draw any conclusions you want from the numbers, but the facts are that in most cases, the most poorly funded states are producing students with the lowest proficiency in basic educational skills. Louisiana is a notable exception. As for a language barrier being a cause, how many native Spanish speakers do you suppose are in such poorly performing states as Idaho (47th), Mississippi (49th), Oklahoma (46th), Alabama (45th) Louisiana (43), and Arkansas (40)? Language isn't the issue, poverty is. Southern states are in most cases very poor due to low wages, relatively uneducated populaces, and a relative lack of employment opportunities.
So were Texas scores better or worse than 2008? Correlation analysis on that?

Even if you are paying thousands more in NJ, you have to take into account that money in TX goes farther than money in NJ. For instance,

Happiness Revisited: A Household Income of $75K? - dshort - Advisor Perspectives

Here are the happiness benchmarks for each state. 69k in TX is equivalent to 85k in NJ. It's the percentage that counts, not the actual $ value.

I know non-northeast and upper midwest states do worse. But I doubt it's because of property taxes paid.
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:33 PM
 
12,883 posts, read 13,936,144 times
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Originally Posted by Craig-D View Post
The county governments aren't the problem, it's all the separate municipalities funding their own services. Fun fact: NJ, the 4th smallest state by land area has 565 municipalities. CA, the 3rd biggest state has 482.
County governments don't need to exist when every municipality entirely controls itself, though.
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