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The Jackson Whites prefer to be called "ramapough". And they are not just black, but rather mixed race: black, Dutch, and Native American.
They don't just prefer-I used to work with a guy who was of Ramapough descent and saw him react to the term "Jackson White" and he wasn't exactly thrilled with it. The term is a shortened version of "Jacks (archaic term for "blacks") and Whites" which was used to pejoratively describe the community in earlier times. Their story is a somewhat sad one as they struggle for some kind of identity because they are not recognized by the federal government like many other Melungeon peoples in the United States. Most of these people live in very isolated regions of Appalachia. The Ramapo Mountains are technically part of the Appalachian chain, and though not as isolated, are quite rugged and isolated by New Jersey/New York standards. Interestingly, one of the leading opponents to the Ramapough Mountain people's recognition as a Native American tribe is none other than Donald Trump...
for me the negative view comes from driving up stag hill. it has been a long time, but last i recall, they do not exactly make it a point to put their trash in the garbage. i don't know, i might be remembering incorrectly.
aside from that i never had any problem with any of them. good place to flip your jeep on its roof up there on the pse&g road
I was a teacher in Ringwood for a while and had some of the Ramapough Mountain People as students. There are a lot of negative stereotypes about them in the community. Many of them either drop out of school or get pregnant and there is inter-breeding. There are also rumors that you can't drive through their areas without getting shot at. Also, the adults frequently get into fist fights.
Interesting topic. I lived in Mahwah from 2000 to 2004 and knew very, very little about these people other than the, seemingly, exaggerated legends.
In recent years, I've read several essays and articles on them, some linked in this thread, and realized I most likely went to junior high school with some of these people back in the early 80's. This was in Orange County, NY about 20 or so minutes north of the Ramapo Mountain community. There was a DeGroat kid and a DeFreese girl. While I didn't know them well, my recollection of them is that they fit the physical/ethnic characteristics to a T. I recall they always hung out together and tended to be in trouble quite a bit. I don't know what became of them after 8th grade, perhaps they both moved away, dropped out, etc. There was also a Mann family, although I always believed they were African American. The one girl in my grade was very nice, well dressed, etc. didn't really fit the 'JW' stereotype. Finally, there was the Dolson family, again I believed they were African American. I recall stories of interbreeding regarding the Dolson's but, I always thought it was people being unkind becaue they were a huge, poor family that lived in what was essentially a large shack along the railroad tracks. Now that I think about it, the Mann's and Dolson's hung around together almost exclusively and, again, I really don't know what become of them past 8th or 9th grade - I do know the Dolson's didn't move, they were still there when I moved away in 1996. I also recall that in junior high there was a cafeteria janitor that everyone called Mumbles, because he really did not speak, and the only kids I ever saw interact with him were the ones mentioned above. He certainly fit the physical/ethnic characteristics to a T as well.
The point to all this? Not sure I have one other than I find this topic interesting, especially since I believe I went to school with some of them. While some of the 'legends' (rampant retardation, people with six toes) seem cruel and unfounded, the interbreeding and less than open arms welcome for outsiders coming up the mountain certainly seem to be credible as I've seen both noted in nearly every reference to the people (some by the people themselves).
Also, does anyone know if they have been recognised as an official Native American tribe? There is conflicting information on the web and a really slanted entry in Wikipedia (check out the 'discussion' tab entries by ramapoughnative). While I'm certainly no expert on the subject the information I've come across indicates they're no more an official Native American tribe than the group of people I hung around with in college. I mean isn't it universally acknowledged that they are of Dutch, Italian and African decent? Just my .02.
Bergen 68 - I only found out about this about a year ago, I had no idea! Then I started reading about it a lot myself. From what I remember (and this is a cough syrup induced entry...) I think they were considered a native american group by the State, but not the nation - or vice versa. I don't think they really are based on what I've read too. I think it was a grab for protectionism that the affiliation could afford them. In the 70's the group was trying to define itself more as black than as Native American.
Yes Mr Bergen 68 we are one of the three recognized Native American Tribes of the State of NJ, and thank you so much for your weird interest. Like what does it matter to you whether we are recognized or not? What about us fascinates everyone so much, that you must have your blogs about people that mind their own business and bother no one. Do it bother you because we are not like all of you, sticking our nose into other people's lives? I get up every day just like you do, go to work, to make a living for myself, come home, pay my bills, eat, and sleep. What about that makes me strange and weird?
I Just wanted to let you know that you have no idea what you are talking about, and most of you don't. We have never defined ourselves as black, because we are not black, never have been nor will we ever be "black". We are bi-racial and tri-racial, and what about that don't you understand? Because all of you people take all your snippets of information from all over the internet, you think that you can just say anything, and it makes it truth or fact, but your all liars and that is a fact and a truth. We do not identify with any group except who we are. Just like your ancestors passed down your history, our's did the same. You may think that we are dump, stupid or whatever, but apparently my ancestors had enough smarts to hid theirselves from the european savages to keep from being murdered like the rest of our people in order to rob their land from them. Is that what bothers you about us, because deep down inside, you know that this is our ancestor's land stolen from them. You all continue to read the rediculous books and believe them. Let me clear up one thing, if you really think that my people do not know who they are or where they came from than there is something wrong with you, not us. Just because we have not given our life history to all of those that have run into the mountains to gauk at us, does not mean that we do not know who we are.
Growing up in Bergen County I heard all about them. They were much maligned and unfairly so, because the older people who told me about them made them out to be horrible monsters. They're just people. They are like other people, they have their problems. They are mostly poor and kind of "trashy" so they run into problems with police often. But they really have been mistreated and discriminated against. It seems to be changing nowadays, because it seems many of their younger generations are integrating with the rest of the "outside" worlds of Bergen/Passaic counties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BERGEN68
Also, does anyone know if they have been recognised as an official Native American tribe? There is conflicting information on the web and a really slanted entry in Wikipedia (check out the 'discussion' tab entries by ramapoughnative). While I'm certainly no expert on the subject the information I've come across indicates they're no more an official Native American tribe than the group of people I hung around with in college. I mean isn't it universally acknowledged that they are of Dutch, Italian and African decent? Just my .02.
No, I don't believe they have, nor should they. The Indian thing came about in the late 90's and 2000's when they realized some of them MIGHT have some native american ancestry, and they sought land as reservation land for their "trible" (translation - they wanted the government to give them part or all of the park lands so they can ride their quads and not be given tickets or arrested by the park police for it). The next step is that they really, REALLY want to build a casino. I don't think they will ever get any land OR a casino - defiinitely not the casino. They are mostly of Dutch, HESSIAN (german) and African-American (freed/runaway slaves) descent, and not of Italian heritage at all. They were in NJ long before the influx of Italians to the state.
This is awesome, I heard about these people but I had no idea they were real and I didn't know the story behind them. I thought it was just a legend. I should go visit them, I wonder if they take kindly to visitors.
This is awesome, I heard about these people but I had no idea they were real and I didn't know the story behind them. I thought it was just a legend. I should go visit them, I wonder if they take kindly to visitors.
Nope, they don't. Read WhiteCloudRising's post--I think it's clear how he feels about outsiders. There have been negative encounters with outsiders, not to mention law enforcement, so it's not just a cranky guy making superiority noises and hurtling nonsensical insults out of nowhere.
Sometimes people--myself included, and you, it sounds like--are merely interested in cultures outside their own, especially the small, little-known pockets of social groups that exist here and there throughout the country and the world. People can be fascinating and there is history that is far more complex than anything we get taught in a standard textbook at school. A desire for knowledge isn't going to go away no matter how much a certain culture resents it; however, the members of such a culture have the right to refuse to not to be looked at like creatures in a zoo or to even have to talk to somebody if they don't wanna.
Some of us will remain interested in people and history no matter what. Even disregarding the Ramapough, there's a lot of history in Bergen County beyond the Dutch farmers (my ancestors). I've only recently been studying how much slavery existed in the early years of Bergen and how there were still slaves (renamed "apprentices") in the county right up until the start of the Civil War.
As for the Italians someone mentioned--yeah! There's an Italian name amongst the Dutch in a cemetery in my town dating from the late 1800's, and my first reaction was "where the heck did HE come from"?
It's never simple....
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