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Old 04-29-2008, 01:33 PM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,738 posts, read 6,437,852 times
Reputation: 631

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Quote:
Originally Posted by njkate View Post
Exactly!! Many on that list can be consolidated..the admin part of it anyway
The way being suggested is incredibly asinine.

The first one on the list, for example - that would be a horrible combination.
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
1,021 posts, read 1,824,530 times
Reputation: 762
Thanks for this analysis Syncmaster. Will you accept an assignment?

From a practical point of view, it makes sense to me that students should attend schools that are close to their homes, which is why I'd suspect to see rural states towards the top of your list and why I'd accept a much smaller number of students per district in those states. I wonder how densely packed they are?

Can you do a similar analysis based on the number of school districts per square mile in each state?
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Monroe, NC
2,563 posts, read 3,974,225 times
Reputation: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobKovacs View Post
But who's talking about combining schools? Unless each existing school is drastically oversized to begin with, you couldn't do that anyway without building new, larger schools. The point here is to consolidate the support functions (admin, personnel, purchasing, etc)- not the schools themselves.
Bob - What I was referring to is that if town "A" has a "magnet school" say Science & Tech and will now have to take in students from town "B" that may require increased busing.

UrbanQuest - The town you mentioned as well as Morristown/ Morris Township would be perfect candidates for consolidation. But for a long skinny town like North Bergen it might be hit or miss proposition.

njkate - You will save administrative costs, but what keeps a lot of these towns from merging schools is the way they are funded by their respective towns. Most of the per-pupil costs are derived from the property taxes of the towns, which can lead to disparate funding. I've seen this occur recently between North Haledon, a fairly upper middle-class town, Haledon. middle class and Prospect Park, a poor town. They all send their kids to Manchester Regional HS. Prospect Park pays $5500 per kid, Haledon $8500, and North Haledon $21,000 per kid due entirely to property value assessments. North Haledon says it pays too much and wants to pull out. Their kids have the best test scores and they don't want to pay for "remedial help" for ESL students. North Haledon wanted everyone to pay an "average rate" which would have meant tax increases for Haledon & Prospect Park residents who balked at that idea! The NJ Supreme Court prevented North Haledon from "seceding" from the present set-up.

This scenario has also happened between Butler & Lincoln Park and River Edge and Oradell. While Corzine is hoping to make these consolidations commonplace, the ones that are already in existance are starting to fall apart, due to intra and inter-town fighting. Maybe taking away school funding from individual towns and doing it at the county level or state level is the answer to arrive at a "one cost per pupil" expenditure!

Last edited by TheEmissary; 04-29-2008 at 02:23 PM.. Reason: punct
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,114 posts, read 2,403,183 times
Reputation: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
The way being suggested is incredibly asinine.

The first one on the list, for example - that would be a horrible combination.
Sounds like you are pretty pissed off there. First of all, what "way" is being suggested, as I pretty much thought it is as simple as one school district + onother school district (1 + 1 = 2, etc...). Why would the first choice be a horrible combination. If you look at a township map (which I bet you haven't) you will see all of those townships are almost concentrically perfect in their placement around the central borough of Clinton. Franklin township actually borders Clinton borough to north. Get your facts straight before you go spouting off, or just wait till the PMS passes.
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:31 PM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,738 posts, read 6,437,852 times
Reputation: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
Sounds like you are pretty pissed off there. First of all, what "way" is being suggested, as I pretty much thought it is as simple as one school district + onother school district (1 + 1 = 2, etc...). Why would the first choice be a horrible combination. If you look at a township map (which I bet you haven't) you will see all of those townships are almost concentrically perfect in their placement around the central borough of Clinton. Franklin township actually borders Clinton borough to north. Get your facts straight before you go spouting off, or just wait till the PMS passes.
LOL

1) I'm male

2) I live there, I don't need a map.

3) I lived elsewhere in your list, don't need a map for that either.

Don't be mad because I'm right. Really, its ok. I'm always right.
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Old 04-29-2008, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,114 posts, read 2,403,183 times
Reputation: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
LOL

1) I'm male

2) I live there, I don't need a map.

3) I lived elsewhere in your list, don't need a map for that either.

Don't be mad because I'm right. Really, its ok. I'm always right.
Wow, you've got those township borders memorized in your head I guess. You might be always right, except you don't seem to know that the PMS joke can apply to males and actually packs more of a punch therein. You never even amazed us with your ideas on how you would deal with all these school districts and high taxes. Maybe you like taxes, and that's fine. I don't like them and I am actually thinking of solutions to the problem. All you can tell us is you don't need a map and that you are male. Oh sorry, I forgot one.... you know how to spell asinine.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:05 PM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,738 posts, read 6,437,852 times
Reputation: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
Wow, you've got those township borders memorized in your head I guess. You might be always right, except you don't seem to know that the PMS joke can apply to males and actually packs more of a punch therein. You never even amazed us with your ideas on how you would deal with all these school districts and high taxes. Maybe you like taxes, and that's fine. I don't like them and I am actually thinking of solutions to the problem. All you can tell us is you don't need a map and that you are male. Oh sorry, I forgot one.... you know how to spell asinine.
Actually, I have, many times over, which is why I didn't repeat them once again for this thread. So, if you'd like to know...

1) Eliminate tenure
2) Lower starting salaries, raises commensurate with experience and positive annual reviews, no guaranteed raises, salaries can go as high as the town's own budget will allow
3) No more pensions (this applies to police and fd as well). Simple IRA plans or 401ks, multiple companies (employee choice, this removes any "connection" for a single financial company controlling the cash), partial match to employee contributions
4) Adjust medical benefits - employee is free, significant other / dependents are not. Adjust copay to today's standard workforce
5) Eliminate funding to failing districts through state taxes
6) Dissolve the NJ SCC - hire consultants to provide standardized design practices, leave it to the districts to abide by them with their own money
7) Eliminate the new useless tests used solely for grading schools
8) Move away from costly physical textbooks, especially where the curriculum (math, for example) does not change.
9) Migrate school board elections from April to November to encourage greater voter turnout
10) Implement a CHOICE program (similar to DC)

The biggest benefit would likely be the elimination of the SCC. Under their reign, a $187 million dollar high school a $42 million dollar elementary school, etc, are incomplete despite a ridiculous waste of money. As someone who deals with school construction (generally not in NJ though), these numbers are INSANE.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:07 AM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,114 posts, read 2,403,183 times
Reputation: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
Actually, I have, many times over, which is why I didn't repeat them once again for this thread. So, if you'd like to know...

1) Eliminate tenure
2) Lower starting salaries, raises commensurate with experience and positive annual reviews, no guaranteed raises, salaries can go as high as the town's own budget will allow
3) No more pensions (this applies to police and fd as well). Simple IRA plans or 401ks, multiple companies (employee choice, this removes any "connection" for a single financial company controlling the cash), partial match to employee contributions
4) Adjust medical benefits - employee is free, significant other / dependents are not. Adjust copay to today's standard workforce
5) Eliminate funding to failing districts through state taxes
6) Dissolve the NJ SCC - hire consultants to provide standardized design practices, leave it to the districts to abide by them with their own money
7) Eliminate the new useless tests used solely for grading schools
8) Move away from costly physical textbooks, especially where the curriculum (math, for example) does not change.
9) Migrate school board elections from April to November to encourage greater voter turnout
10) Implement a CHOICE program (similar to DC)

The biggest benefit would likely be the elimination of the SCC. Under their reign, a $187 million dollar high school a $42 million dollar elementary school, etc, are incomplete despite a ridiculous waste of money. As someone who deals with school construction (generally not in NJ though), these numbers are INSANE.



Looks good actually. Good luck on the pensions though. And pensions are probably the numero uno culprit in the crazy budgets this state has. I moved recently from a Seattle suburb and we had everything the schools in Hillsborough have and more (brand new highly rated high school). Property taxes where low and municpal services where fine. Not sure if the teachers had pension plans though. With the Governor planning to add tolls to the 78 and 80 freeways, this state seems to be as fiscally responsible as Wesley Snipes.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:41 PM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,738 posts, read 6,437,852 times
Reputation: 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
Looks good actually. Good luck on the pensions though. And pensions are probably the numero uno culprit in the crazy budgets this state has. I moved recently from a Seattle suburb and we had everything the schools in Hillsborough have and more (brand new highly rated high school). Property taxes where low and municpal services where fine. Not sure if the teachers had pension plans though. With the Governor planning to add tolls to the 78 and 80 freeways, this state seems to be as fiscally responsible as Wesley Snipes.
*nod* pensions even beat out the NJ SCC, shockingly enough.
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Old 04-30-2008, 01:04 PM
 
810 posts, read 2,271,539 times
Reputation: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
Bob - What I was referring to is that if town "A" has a "magnet school" say Science & Tech and will now have to take in students from town "B" that may require increased busing.

UrbanQuest - The town you mentioned as well as Morristown/ Morris Township would be perfect candidates for consolidation. But for a long skinny town like North Bergen it might be hit or miss proposition.

njkate - You will save administrative costs, but what keeps a lot of these towns from merging schools is the way they are funded by their respective towns. Most of the per-pupil costs are derived from the property taxes of the towns, which can lead to disparate funding. I've seen this occur recently between North Haledon, a fairly upper middle-class town, Haledon. middle class and Prospect Park, a poor town. They all send their kids to Manchester Regional HS. Prospect Park pays $5500 per kid, Haledon $8500, and North Haledon $21,000 per kid due entirely to property value assessments. North Haledon says it pays too much and wants to pull out. Their kids have the best test scores and they don't want to pay for "remedial help" for ESL students. North Haledon wanted everyone to pay an "average rate" which would have meant tax increases for Haledon & Prospect Park residents who balked at that idea! The NJ Supreme Court prevented North Haledon from "seceding" from the present set-up.

This scenario has also happened between Butler & Lincoln Park and River Edge and Oradell. While Corzine is hoping to make these consolidations commonplace, the ones that are already in existance are starting to fall apart, due to intra and inter-town fighting. Maybe taking away school funding from individual towns and doing it at the county level or state level is the answer to arrive at a "one cost per pupil" expenditure!
I remember reading about this in the Herald News a couple of years ago! The residents of North Haledon wanted to send their kids to Midland Park High School instead (Midland Park was already ready to make expansions in order to accommendate them). The other towns (Haledon and Prospect Park) were against it because most of the White students come from North Haledon and if this occured, diversity at Manchester would be finished. So, it never happened.
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