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Old 08-28-2019, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Union City, NJ
1,599 posts, read 1,000,868 times
Reputation: 2214

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
Why would the color matter at all? That is neither good, nor bad. People are people.

If you said, “Good luck convincing rich people from first world countries, that bringing in loads of poor people from the third world countries is a good thing.” I would agree with you. You can’t convince us, that is, unless you are one of the people that profits from them. We have already seen the effects over the last few decades.

I rarely see you or other like-minded people object so loudly to other policies or social issues that contribute to more crime and much more misuse of tax dollars than illegal immigration does. I have to conclude that there’s a racial undertone there, even if it’s a subconscious one. I don’t expect you to agree.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:12 AM
 
7,339 posts, read 14,390,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
A girl in my daughter’s 5th grade class had to move to Paris because of her dad’s job. I think she will be fine. Kids learn languages quickly when they are submerged in it.

Hey, and what about all those kids who these “refugees” (wink wink) are bringing over here. They have gone through school in another country. Many of them don't speak English. The humanitarian thing to do, would be to send them back to their natural habitat. After all, it would be cruel to subject them to a new country and new language after growing up somewhere else. Right?
You're comparing a 10 year old who happily moved with her family from one modern/developed nation to another. This current situation is that college-aged students and above are being deported to countries they have no memories of ever being in, where the population speaks something besides English. Ten year olds are not getting these college scholarships. These are adults, raised in the US, who excelled in school and have a lot to contribute to our society because it's the only home that they know.

Literally the only logical thing is what HudsonCo said. There are massive racial undertones here. Alternatively, the only logical thing is you lack any ounce of empathy in your entire body. If you could feel empathy, you would not be okay with deporting people who grew up as Americans and want to contribute to our society. So choose one. Are you racist or incapable of feeling empathy?
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:34 AM
 
Location: NJ
24,876 posts, read 30,993,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
A their could use the money to buy a gun and kill people, or commit more robberies, so it can be used for evil, just the way the government does.

But you do realize that you cant say that tax is theft (and mean it) if you distinguish between legal theft and illegal theft. I mean, theft is theft, right? Either way, you are paying under threat of force. I’m not sure many strict libertarian/anarchist would agree with you that there is a difference.
i dont think that anybody commits evil at the level of government especially the US government. someone educated using tax dollars could ultimately commit acts of evil but the education isnt evil and very few will likely commit evil acts.

i dont disagree, theft is theft. what the US government in stealing our money at the point of a gun is doing is clearly wrong. i will say that there are other factors that can make wrong acts especially repugnant. for example, stealing from a handicapped person vs stealing from an adult with means. both wrong; one is just a bit more offensive. in this specific case, stealing the money and spending it on the military is a double wrong and is especially evil and repugnant. even if the money werent attained via theft, spending it on the military would be wrong. if the money were attained legitimately, there is nothing wrong with spending money on education.

and once again, i dont see much difference between spending money on legals or illegals.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Union City, NJ
1,599 posts, read 1,000,868 times
Reputation: 2214
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
You're comparing a 10 year old who happily moved with her family from one modern/developed nation to another. This current situation is that college-aged students and above are being deported to countries they have no memories of ever being in, where the population speaks something besides English. Ten year olds are not getting these college scholarships. These are adults, raised in the US, who excelled in school and have a lot to contribute to our society because it's the only home that they know.

Literally the only logical thing is what HudsonCo said. There are massive racial undertones here. Alternatively, the only logical thing is you lack any ounce of empathy in your entire body. If you could feel empathy, you would not be okay with deporting people who grew up as Americans and want to contribute to our society. So choose one. Are you racist or incapable of feeling empathy?


You bringing up empathy reminded me of Dave Chappelle's new stand up, Sticks and Stones on Netflix. He talks about how today's opioid crisis finally let's black people see white people in the same lens that whites saw blacks during the crack epidemic of the 80's and 90's. He went on to say something, "I don't even blame you guys for how you treated us back then, because today, I don't care about y'all either."
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,983 posts, read 10,580,758 times
Reputation: 8366
Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonCoNJ View Post
I rarely see you or other like-minded people object so loudly to other policies or social issues that contribute to more crime and much more misuse of tax dollars than illegal immigration does. I have to conclude that there’s a racial undertone there, even if it’s a subconscious one. I don’t expect you to agree.
I don't. Not at all. I have the perfect example.

When I was in London a few months ago, I was talking to my tour guide about brexit. He said it is mostly about poor Polish people coming to the country, using government services and lowering wages for unskilled labor. I said that this is our exact problem in the States with illegal immigrants.

Then I said that it must be refreshing to be able to have a rational discussion about this without race being brought into it.

He asked, “What do you mean?”

Confused by the question, I said, “Poles are white too.”

To which he replied, “Oh no. If you say you are against the Poles coming, people will call you racist.”
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:17 AM
 
1,100 posts, read 1,807,726 times
Reputation: 1410
Typical leftist lunacy...taking from our hard working citizens, who are overtaxed to begin with, for the support of those who are here illegally.and contribute nothing except disease and crime. It's all about power and creating a voter base that won't ask questions as long as the freebies keep coming.

Illegal means not legal. It's a crime and yet the left rewards it. The taxpayer owes them zero. We should be
rounding them up at schools, emergency rooms etc and sending them all back to where they came from.
We should also require reimbursement from the country of origin for all funds spent on their support.

The beautiful border wall can't be made high enough!!!!
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,983 posts, read 10,580,758 times
Reputation: 8366
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
You're comparing a 10 year old who happily moved with her family from one modern/developed nation to another. This current situation is that college-aged students and above are being deported to countries they have no memories of ever being in, where the population speaks something besides English. Ten year olds are not getting these college scholarships. These are adults, raised in the US, who excelled in school and have a lot to contribute to our society because it's the only home that they know.

Literally the only logical thing is what HudsonCo said. There are massive racial undertones here. Alternatively, the only logical thing is you lack any ounce of empathy in your entire body. If you could feel empathy, you would not be okay with deporting people who grew up as Americans and want to contribute to our society. So choose one. Are you racist or incapable of feeling empathy?
What racial undertones are those?

And you never answered my question. If it is ok for people from poor countries to take their children out of their schools and away from their friends and family to illegally sneak into rich countries where they speak a different language, why is it not ok to take them out out of their schools and away from their friends and family from the rich country to the poor country, where they speak a different language?

The only conclusion I can make, is that the schools, friends, language, culture, etc, doesn’t truly bother you. It is the wealth of the country that makes a difference for you.

You talk about empathy, but this whole thing is about money. Economic migrants, which is what the vast majority are, is not a qualification for refugee status. It is all about money. I am wealthy, by most standards. I think I do more for charity than most people. But I don't give hand outs to every poor person I meet on the streets. Why? Because then I wouldn’t be wealthy anymore.

It is the same with our country. With no limitations on the amount of third world immigrants, our social services would go bankrupt very quickly.

Now, before you say “I’m not for NO limitations, but I think we need to help the ones who are here.” (That is what you guys always say), I would counter by saying that you ARE for NO limitations. You just don't know it. You help these, and what happens next? More come. Then you say, “We just have to help these people.” And the cycle starts all over again. It would go on forever. In other words, “no limitations”. For decades, nobody has been taking a stand, and it has just gotten worse and worse. To finally fix the problem, a stand has to be made.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:13 AM
 
7,339 posts, read 14,390,647 times
Reputation: 5018
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
I don't. Not at all. I have the perfect example.

When I was in London a few months ago, I was talking to my tour guide about brexit. He said it is mostly about poor Polish people coming to the country, using government services and lowering wages for unskilled labor. I said that this is our exact problem in the States with illegal immigrants.

Then I said that it must be refreshing to be able to have a rational discussion about this without race being brought into it.

He asked, “What do you mean?”

Confused by the question, I said, “Poles are white too.”

To which he replied, “Oh no. If you say you are against the Poles coming, people will call you racist.”
Sounds like your problem is with capitalism, not immigrants. Capitalists are going to get the job done for the cheapest price, thereby employing the lowest-paid workers. You should be more pissed at the capitalists and company owners for continuing to employ underpaid people. Immigrants are only filling the jobs that capitalist have openings for. If people were forced to pay more to employees, and punishments to the business owners were far stronger, they would not continue employing undocumented immigrants. It's not like people crossed the border and demanded that these employers break the law to hire them. Employers willingly broke the law by employing undocumented immigrants and likely paid them below the federal minimum wage, yet they will get little to no punishment for breaking the law.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,983 posts, read 10,580,758 times
Reputation: 8366
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
Sounds like your problem is with capitalism, not immigrants. Capitalists are going to get the job done for the cheapest price, thereby employing the lowest-paid workers. You should be more pissed at the capitalists and company owners for continuing to employ underpaid people. Immigrants are only filling the jobs that capitalist have openings for. If people were forced to pay more to employees, and punishments to the business owners were far stronger, they would not continue employing undocumented immigrants. It's not like people crossed the border and demanded that these employers break the law to hire them. Employers willingly broke the law by employing undocumented immigrants and likely paid them below the federal minimum wage, yet they will get little to no punishment for breaking the law.
You have said some things that are correct, and some that are incorrect. I have a problem with global capitalism, because it is a fairly new phenomenon and the starting points of global economies are so disparate that blending the economies, while making the standard of living in poor countries better, will make the standard of living in wealthy countries worse. And I live in a wealthy country, so I am not FOR what is harmful to myself or the ones I love. Capitalism is wonderful, but only between economies that are comparable.

And yes, the people who profit from the disparities are very happy about the disparities. They can make things in places where you can pay 5 cents an hour, and sell them in places where people make $20 an hour. Another way they profit from it is by importing it. They look the other way when an illegal alien applies for a job. That way they can pay them less and help keep wages down overall. In my opinion, these employers should face jail time. Mandatory Everify, and jail time for people who hire illegal aliens. That would be the most efficient way to take care of the problem. The jobs would dry up, and the illegals would have no choice but to go back to where they came from. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t attack it from all angles though.

Here is where you are wrong. If employers wee forced to pay more, it would not bring less illegal aliens. It would bring more. More employers would hire illegals, because it would be more expensive to hire legal workers. I do think employers should be forced to pay more though. Not by the government. By the market. Get rid of illegals, and employers will have no choice but to raise salaries to fill the positions.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:38 AM
 
7,339 posts, read 14,390,647 times
Reputation: 5018
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
What racial undertones are those?

And you never answered my question. If it is ok for people from poor countries to take their children out of their schools and away from their friends and family to illegally sneak into rich countries where they speak a different language, why is it not ok to take them out out of their schools and away from their friends and family from the rich country to the poor country, where they speak a different language?

The only conclusion I can make, is that the schools, friends, language, culture, etc, doesn’t truly bother you. It is the wealth of the country that makes a difference for you.

You talk about empathy, but this whole thing is about money. Economic migrants, which is what the vast majority are, is not a qualification for refugee status. It is all about money. I am wealthy, by most standards. I think I do more for charity than most people. But I don't give hand outs to every poor person I meet on the streets. Why? Because then I wouldn’t be wealthy anymore.

It is the same with our country. With no limitations on the amount of third world immigrants, our social services would go bankrupt very quickly.

Now, before you say “I’m not for NO limitations, but I think we need to help the ones who are here.” (That is what you guys always say), I would counter by saying that you ARE for NO limitations. You just don't know it. You help these, and what happens next? More come. Then you say, “We just have to help these people.” And the cycle starts all over again. It would go on forever. In other words, “no limitations”. For decades, nobody has been taking a stand, and it has just gotten worse and worse. To finally fix the problem, a stand has to be made.
You're outraged over undocumented immigrants trying to better themselves and become functioning members of society. Yet you're also outraged when undocumented immigrants receive any sort of assistance. Most undocumented immigrants are not white. You seemingly do not care about the lies of these minorities because you simultaneously are ridiculing them for trying to better themselves and not receive any assistance, as well as ridiculing them for receiving assistance because they were unable to better themselves. This has long been a racial issue for certain political ideologies in America. The complete dichotomy of "immigrants steal our jobs" and "immigrants are poor lazy leeches." You can't have it both ways, but both messages are able to stick with a certain group of Americans because of the racial background these statements stem from.

You used the term refugees. I'll assume this discussion has now transitioned to the current border crisis. Likely, many of them are refugees, whether the US government labels them as refugees or not. They are coming from extremely violent and corrupt countries. (Side note: many of them are unstable and violent and corrupt because of US intervention.) There is a major difference between bringing a child to the US to seek asylum and deporting a child is the former was done out of humanity to better the life of one's child, while the latter was done because we have arbitrary political boundaries that allow us to dehumanize an entire subgroup of the human race simply based on the land they were born on and the color of their skin.

Actually there is a very good way of solving the vicious cycle you're referring to of "if you allow undocumented immigrants a better life here, they will continue coming here." You're not going to like it, though. We drastically cut military funding. And when I say drastically, I mean a word beyond drastically that I can't think of off the top of my head. There is absolutely no reason our military budget should be this high, except a large number of politicians are basically on the payroll of military contractors and it's all a money game at the expense of the little people like you and me. Then, instead of spending our tax dollars to kill people all over the world and threaten any world leader we deem as less than perfect, we use the surplus for good. Instead of sending weapons to Latin America, we send humanitarian supplies. Alongside the local governments, we do things like build better schools and improve the economy so that less people turn to violent crime to support their families.

In order to fix a problem, you must solve the actual roots of the problem. We cannot cure illegal immigration simply by walling ourselves in and cutting off all undocumented immigrants from our society and/or deporting them all. More will arrive and it will never end. Instead, we need to fix the root of the problem. Very few people simply willingly leave their home and risk their entire family's life getting to the US because their home country is wonderful. Make it more realistic for people to stay in their home country and they likely will. Help these countries flourish on their own instead of using our tax dollars to bomb people because they pray to a different higher power and look different than us.
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