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Old 08-28-2019, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,983 posts, read 10,580,758 times
Reputation: 8366

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
You're outraged over undocumented immigrants trying to better themselves and become functioning members of society. Yet you're also outraged when undocumented immigrants receive any sort of assistance. Most undocumented immigrants are not white. You seemingly do not care about the lies of these minorities because you simultaneously are ridiculing them for trying to better themselves and not receive any assistance, as well as ridiculing them for receiving assistance because they were unable to better themselves. This has long been a racial issue for certain political ideologies in America. The complete dichotomy of "immigrants steal our jobs" and "immigrants are poor lazy leeches." You can't have it both ways, but both messages are able to stick with a certain group of Americans because of the racial background these statements stem from.

You used the term refugees. I'll assume this discussion has now transitioned to the current border crisis. Likely, many of them are refugees, whether the US government labels them as refugees or not. They are coming from extremely violent and corrupt countries. (Side note: many of them are unstable and violent and corrupt because of US intervention.) There is a major difference between bringing a child to the US to seek asylum and deporting a child is the former was done out of humanity to better the life of one's child, while the latter was done because we have arbitrary political boundaries that allow us to dehumanize an entire subgroup of the human race simply based on the land they were born on and the color of their skin.

Actually there is a very good way of solving the vicious cycle you're referring to of "if you allow undocumented immigrants a better life here, they will continue coming here." You're not going to like it, though. We drastically cut military funding. And when I say drastically, I mean a word beyond drastically that I can't think of off the top of my head. There is absolutely no reason our military budget should be this high, except a large number of politicians are basically on the payroll of military contractors and it's all a money game at the expense of the little people like you and me. Then, instead of spending our tax dollars to kill people all over the world and threaten any world leader we deem as less than perfect, we use the surplus for good. Instead of sending weapons to Latin America, we send humanitarian supplies. Alongside the local governments, we do things like build better schools and improve the economy so that less people turn to violent crime to support their families.

In order to fix a problem, you must solve the actual roots of the problem. We cannot cure illegal immigration simply by walling ourselves in and cutting off all undocumented immigrants from our society and/or deporting them all. More will arrive and it will never end. Instead, we need to fix the root of the problem. Very few people simply willingly leave their home and risk their entire family's life getting to the US because their home country is wonderful. Make it more realistic for people to stay in their home country and they likely will. Help these countries flourish on their own instead of using our tax dollars to bomb people because they pray to a different higher power and look different than us.
I have a long drive ahead of me. I’ll have to read and get back to this another time.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:42 AM
 
7,339 posts, read 14,390,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
You have said some things that are correct, and some that are incorrect. I have a problem with global capitalism, because it is a fairly new phenomenon and the starting points of global economies are so disparate that blending the economies, while making the standard of living in poor countries better, will make the standard of living in wealthy countries worse. And I live in a wealthy country, so I am not FOR what is harmful to myself or the ones I love. Capitalism is wonderful, but only between economies that are comparable.

And yes, the people who profit from the disparities are very happy about the disparities. They can make things in places where you can pay 5 cents an hour, and sell them in places where people make $20 an hour. Another way they profit from it is by importing it. They look the other way when an illegal alien applies for a job. That way they can pay them less and help keep wages down overall. In my opinion, these employers should face jail time. Mandatory Everify, and jail time for people who hire illegal aliens. That would be the most efficient way to take care of the problem. The jobs would dry up, and the illegals would have no choice but to go back to where they came from. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t attack it from all angles though.

Here is where you are wrong. If employers wee forced to pay more, it would not bring less illegal aliens. It would bring more. More employers would hire illegals, because it would be more expensive to hire legal workers. I do think employers should be forced to pay more though. Not by the government. By the market. Get rid of illegals, and employers will have no choice but to raise salaries to fill the positions.
You're right, many would turn to these people to run their businesses even more. However, in order to combat the issue of employers employing undocumented workers for less than minimum wage, our laws must be enforced very strictly against these employers. I'm all for passing even harsher punishments on these employers who utilize undocumented workers because by doing so they're also taking jobs away from citizens. But, as long as the market for employing undocumented workers continues, the need will always be filled. The market for this employment relationship continues because the capitalist business owners know that their punishments with be non-existent or a just a little wag of the finger.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:43 AM
 
22,700 posts, read 17,533,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
Why would the color matter at all? That is neither good, nor bad. People are people.

If you said, “Good luck convincing rich people from first world countries, that bringing in loads of poor people from the third world countries is a good thing.” I would agree with you. You can’t convince us, that is, unless you are one of the people that profits from them. We have already seen the effects over the last few decades.
Again you keep missing the point that sending these kids to school will keep them from being poor people. What’s the difference if we bring over educated people from Norway or just educate these kids who are already here and know no other life?

As an aside, both sets of my grandparents were “poor people” when they arrived as were the majority of our ancestors who emigrated here.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:52 AM
 
22,700 posts, read 17,533,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
You're right, many would turn to these people to run their businesses even more. However, in order to combat the issue of employers employing undocumented workers for less than minimum wage, our laws must be enforced very strictly against these employers. I'm all for passing even harsher punishments on these employers who utilize undocumented workers because by doing so they're also taking jobs away from citizens. But, as long as the market for employing undocumented workers continues, the need will always be filled. The market for this employment relationship continues because the capitalist business owners know that their punishments with be non-existent or a just a little wag of the finger.
This to me is similar to the China arguments. The reason everything is made in China is because consumers chose cheap Chinese items over American made. They wanted $150 tv not $275. “Joe’s hometown appliances” went out of business cause Walmart came to town with cheaper goods. If they bring these factories back everything we buy will go up to the way it was before. Which again American consumers didn’t want and didn’t care if American factories closed.

Same with illegals. Before cheap labor, there were a handful of landscaping companies (as an example) that catered to the well off. In the 1960s and 70s, no one that I knew had a lawn service. No one hired people to mow their lawn unless it was a neighbors kid because it was expensive. Once cheap labor became available, hundreds and hundreds more landscaping business has opened up (most owned by Americans) and getting your lawn mowed became commonplace because the price came down considerably.

Getting rid of illegals will just mean half the landscaping companies go out of business, and the rest double their prices. Our history is not one of supporting American workers over lower costs.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:15 PM
 
446 posts, read 639,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
You guys are acting like these are people that just hopped the border yesterday and are going to college. These are DACA recipients/Dreamers who were dragged over here as child before they could even walk or make decisions on their own.
If Congress passes DACA as a permanent law, then can you guess what will happen? All that the parents outside US need to do is somehow reach US with their kids and then their kids are golden so far as law is concerned.

Its so unfair that DACA kids get EAD but children (born before arriving into US) of legal immigrants who have been waiting for green cards for 15-20 years while being within US get aged out i.e. they lose their legal status and have to leave the US.

One of the conditions of getting DACA status is that you should have illegally entered. Why did they put that clause? Why not also include the kids who entered legally?
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Old 08-28-2019, 01:26 PM
 
Location: NJ
24,876 posts, read 30,993,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shet View Post
If Congress passes DACA as a permanent law, then can you guess what will happen? All that the parents outside US need to do is somehow reach US with their kids and then their kids are golden so far as law is concerned.

Its so unfair that DACA kids get EAD but children (born before arriving into US) of legal immigrants who have been waiting for green cards for 15-20 years while being within US get aged out i.e. they lose their legal status and have to leave the US.

One of the conditions of getting DACA status is that you should have illegally entered. Why did they put that clause? Why not also include the kids who entered legally?
do you really care about those that legally entered or do you just want to discriminate against one group while pretending to care about another group?

instead of trying to take away something from one group to make things fair; how about simply focusing on helping the other group obtain the same fairness?

its obvious a bs way to oppose something by pretending to care about another group that you dont really care about.
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Old 08-28-2019, 01:42 PM
 
7,339 posts, read 14,390,647 times
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Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
do you really care about those that legally entered or do you just want to discriminate against one group while pretending to care about another group?

instead of trying to take away something from one group to make things fair; how about simply focusing on helping the other group obtain the same fairness?

its obvious a bs way to oppose something by pretending to care about another group that you dont really care about.
I agree with this. I don't think anyone is sitting here saying DACA is perfect. But a pathway to citizenship should be easier for all people, regardless of how they entered the country. Immigration is a good thing to anyone who isn't terrified of white people becoming a minority.
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Old 08-28-2019, 03:57 PM
 
Location: NJ
24,876 posts, read 30,993,270 times
Reputation: 16857
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
I agree with this. I don't think anyone is sitting here saying DACA is perfect. But a pathway to citizenship should be easier for all people, regardless of how they entered the country. Immigration is a good thing to anyone who isn't terrified of white people becoming a minority.
im still open to him adjusting his statement that everyone should follow the legal process or not be accepted. i just dont like people pretending to care about one group and use that fake concern to oppose another group.

this is a difficult situation for me to navigate as technically i oppose immigration restrictions but i also oppose any government assistance for anyone. but i dont really want to move to zero government assistance overnight. i think the best way is to make cuts over time to get to the smallest government possible (ideally zero but i dont think we would ever get there). id start with the worst parts like the military and police before i tackle most public assistance stuff.
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Old 08-28-2019, 04:20 PM
 
7,339 posts, read 14,390,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
im still open to him adjusting his statement that everyone should follow the legal process or not be accepted. i just dont like people pretending to care about one group and use that fake concern to oppose another group.

this is a difficult situation for me to navigate as technically i oppose immigration restrictions but i also oppose any government assistance for anyone. but i dont really want to move to zero government assistance overnight. i think the best way is to make cuts over time to get to the smallest government possible (ideally zero but i dont think we would ever get there). id start with the worst parts like the military and police before i tackle most public assistance stuff.
I ask this genuinely and not as an attack on you.

As a small-government libertarian, are you okay with these small investments made in people (regardless of citizenship status) from an early age, so as to better guarantee they will need less assistance later on in life? I mean it's proven that higher education leads to higher income. Higher incomes means someone is less likely to need government assistance. Allowing more people to become better educated and therefore raise more people to an income that allows them to be self-sufficient is a positive for you?

Or, would you rather that no investment be made in people from an early age, thereby heightening their likely need for government assistance? Because then, under small government theories, there should be no social programs to help those in need. So, in this scenario, what do you propose society do to help those who cannot feed their families or provide sanitary living conditions for their families?

The main question I'm trying to ask, though, is this. We live in a country with social safety nets. Are you in favor of or against allowing your tax money to give someone money to attend college, regardless of citizenship status, if it means they'll likely need no/less assistance in the future?

Again, not attacking your viewpoints. Genuinely curious about your standpoint on this issue.
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Old 08-28-2019, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,983 posts, read 10,580,758 times
Reputation: 8366
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Again you keep missing the point that sending these kids to school will keep them from being poor people. What’s the difference if we bring over educated people from Norway or just educate these kids who are already here and know no other life?

As an aside, both sets of my grandparents were “poor people” when they arrived as were the majority of our ancestors who emigrated here.
I’m not missing it. I have explained my position on this. I understand your point, and I am not disagreeing with the facts you are presenting here. I disagree with the policy, because as I said, normalizing illegals is no way to fix the problem. It invites more of them who want THEIR kids to go to an American college and live in a wealthy country, to cheat the system because cheating the system pays.

I would be willing to bet my ancestors were poor when they came as well, though I don't know for sure because it is going back too far. But just to tie in Captain’s remarks, back then, it was a libertarian utopia, minus the slavery of course. If you went back to those days, again, minus the slavery, then I would have much less of a problem letting everyone in. When my ancestors came, there was no government assistance at all. You worked, or else you went without a roof over your head and food on the table. That is a much easier argument to make for less restrictive immigration laws. As I said, our social services only have so much money. And they are stretched as it is.
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