This should be fun, lets compaire...what are your taxes? (Trenton: sale, for rent)

[JERSEY MAN]

Originally Posted by KatieKate

$200,000 house in Delaware - taxes $980/year

Thats not nice, you know we are all drooling and jealous and envious. What town KatieKate.

[MaverickDD]

Originally Posted by SunnyNJ

Boonton township. 5 beds, 2 1/2 baths, 1 acre...taxes are $23,000. Sorry to say, I think I win.

Originally Posted by MaverickDD

Kinnelon, 50+ years old, 5BR, 3.5 Bth, one-third acre, lake front on county road: $7500.
Relative to most of America -- Ridiculous!
Relative to most of suburban New Jersey -- No complaints.

Sunny, you need to move one town over. For $15,000 a year difference, I don't care if we always lose the Thanksgiving football game. We're still winners in the end!

[Summering]

$250,000 house in Pa on two acres..( 1750sq ft. another 1750 sq ft unfinished )......taxes 5000......Just over the border of NJ.

[MaverickDD]

Originally Posted by neekah18

...which makes me wonder..WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING?????

Our politicians have bought themselves votes by bribing the upper class and underclass (via "entitlements") as well as certain public employees (via "payoffs") with an excessive number of dollars from the state treasury. Hence, after all the entitlements are paid, there's little left to pay for the common-good things we "middle class" use and enjoy ... like state parks!

Forty years ago, the problem started to show through "white-flight" from our urban areas. This was mistakenly deemed a race issue. (And I'm not denying that there were and still are racial issues, but race-baiters try to keep us fighting with each other to keep our eyes off of the real issues). It's really a class issue, and recently, as a greater number of minorities join the ranks of the middle class, these new middle class folk are just as P.O.'d about having their pockets picked as I am, if not more so.

Now, the entire state is experiencing middle-class flight -- including whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Jews alike -- because we can't afford to support both ourselves (spending our hard-earned inflation-diminished dollars) and the entitlement class (through the state's excessive spending and the related tax burden placed upon us.)

Having a governor who sleeps with the head of the public employees' union should cause some red flags to be waived too. But no one seems to have the motivation or the power to challenge this.

New Jersey is a great place to live if you're rich and a great place to live if you're poor. If you're middle-class, you're somewhat nuts if you stay! Presently, I'm one of the nuts. So that's where the money is going. We have the rich, we have the poor, and we have a retarded middle-class.

Though the source of this popular quote is in dispute, it's worthy of contemplation: A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the masses discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy... (with the working middle-class carrying the bulk of the burden.) Well, the masses (the "entitlement class" meaning the lower and upper class combined) have realized this! And now, those paying the bills -- the middle class, are at that point of serious fiscal hardship.

Someone asked, "Why don't we do anything about it?" Well, we do -- but remember that people vote in four ways: 1) with their ballot, 2) with their voice, 3) with their wallet, and 4) with their feet.

There are not enough of us to win with the ballot. We're not strong enough to win with our voices. We're too broke to win with our wallet. Hence daily, we read in this forum about people leaving New Jersey. Well, this is why: It's easier to leave than to fight. People are voting with their feet, because it's the only way we can win, (and most politicians are happy to see them go).

I'm born and raised in New Jersey. Lived here all my life. This is home and I love it here, in spite of our politicians who really have ruined our quality of life. But "New Jersey and me" are no longer "perfect together." I too will likely be forced out within a few years due to politically-provoked economic reasons. How about you?

[AnesthesiaMD]

Hmm. Please elaborate. What entitlements do the upper class get in NJ?
They pay 9% state income tax and they pay HUGE property tax bills, yet they never get a rebate check. They could live much better in most other states, and they are fleeing NJ as much as the middle class. So where is the advantage for them in NJ?

[Stone28]

I think I'm the last of a dying breed...a second home owner

Two family house in Cliffside Park valued at around $650,000 is $6,800 in taxes.

Bayfront home in Toms River valued at around $750,000 is $7,800 in taxes. Plus we pay the state's tidelands $890 a year for a 100 foot dock with a boat lift on it.

Originally Posted by MaverickDD

I'm born and raised in New Jersey. Lived here all my life. This is home and I love it here, in spite of our politicians who really have ruined our quality of life. But "New Jersey and me" are no longer "perfect together." I too will likely be forced out within a few years due to politically-provoked economic reasons. How about you?

I agree the quality of life has gone down, but I think that goes for just about everywhere these days. The way I see it. It costs us about an extra $10,000 a year to live here in NJ than it would to live in a low tax state. To us its just not worth the trade off. Were definatly not rich I'm a construction worker and my wife is a special ed teacher who is taking a time off with our small children. We worry about retirement and helping our kids if God willing they go to collage. So were staying...

[ElizNJ]

Delran, Burlington County: 3 BR 1.5 Bath splitlevel, lot 85x125 -$6326

[banger]

To MaverickDD,

HERE,HERE...

You were just able to articulate how it is that New Jersey, can impose an exit tax, and still find thousands willing to pay it.

What ever it cost to leave, is money well spent.

Notice too how our kinder and gentler legislators in Trenton are driving business from this state, through taxes, fees, worker entitlements, regulations and such.

Business have learned quite a while ago, that relief is simply on the other side of the Delaware river. Perfection no, but a good deal of relief none the less.

Oh the humanity, it's like living in a slow motion disaster.

[neekah18]

Originally Posted by Busch Boy

My parents own a home in Paterson too. Its a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom home. Taxes are $8,500! Although its a good part of town, that is waaay to expensive for the services you get in Paterson. I just saw what some of you pay and its even more upsetting, being that you pay the same (or even less) and live in suburbia.

My dad says he will never buy another home in NJ again and if they move, it will be to another state. I just hope its not soon because I'm not ready to follow them anywhere right now .

My mom plans to move in a couple years once the housing market picks up. Her house should sell pretty quickly considering our neighborhood and it's in an area where there are working families who actually take pride in their community by having nice landscaping and not blasting music 24/7 and every other car is not double parked!!! Either way she could move to a town with a nice reputation and lower taxes and I'd actually feel better about her being home alone or sleeping with her window open a bit.

[MaverickDD]

Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD

Hmm. Please elaborate. What entitlements do the upper class get in NJ? They pay 9% state income tax and they pay HUGE property tax bills, yet they never get a rebate check. They could live much better in most other states, and they are fleeing NJ as much as the middle class. So where is the advantage for them in NJ?

Your point is well taken. I'll be the first to admit that tax rates on the wealthy in New Jersey are utterly ridiculous. (And it's not just the rates: Losses don't exist. Losses in one category may not be used to offset income in another. Itemized deductions -- what are they? Etc.)

Yet there are segments of New Jersey's wealthy that benefit greatly (though indirectly) from government entitlements. New Jersey has a sizable aristocratic class that enjoy power, prestige, preference, and position. Many in this class are the recipients of the exorbitant fees that New Jerseyans pay; fees for goods and services that would cost much less if the government wasn't subsidizing these charges for some people but not for others.

And what benefits might these be? Take rent subsidies as one example.

Most poor people don't pay much for rent. Section 8 pays it for them. The excessive rents paid by the government to house the poor lead to higher rents (driven by economic supply/demand) upon the unsubsidized middle class (another hidden tax). Who benefits? 1) The poor, and 2) rental property owners. The poor get their rent paid by the government, the wealthy get increased cash flows + asset values while the middle class pay for it.

More so, rental rates in poor neighborhoods are ridiculous! Think about it. Why would someone pay half-a-million dollars for a three family house in a neighborhood where kids go to schools surrounded by 12 foot fences topped with razor wire? Why are the rents higher there than in towns with blue-ribbon school districts? Because those who live there aren't paying for it and those who own there are assured of ever escalating income, (until the next "event of reckoning" occurs, but we'll save that for another post).

With the ludicrous taxes placed upon the well-to-do, why would they stay in NJ? Because many are at the end of the line as the indirect recipient of some entitlement benefits. That's the benefit that the well-off get for staying.

And I agree with you. If they're not somehow getting that benefit, there is no advantage for the wealthy to stay. In that case, they're nuts to stay too. And yes, many wealthy are leaving. But as long as we're both still here, well-to-do or middle class, if you're one of us nuts, I'll share acorns with you!

(PS: And the hardest hit are the true working poor. How the unsubsidized working poor ever come up with the money to pay rent in New Jersey is beyond me. My heart goes out to them -- and no, I'm not being facetious.)

(PPS: Many of New Jersey's well-off avoid some of our state's income tax by establishing residency in low or no-income-tax states via ownership of a second home. It's rather well known that thousands of New Jerseyans claim Florida residency by making their Florida home their "tax home" and their New Jersey home their "second home." That's a privilege unavailable to the middle class.)