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Old 05-21-2008, 05:50 PM
 
810 posts, read 2,253,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66nexus View Post
Oh the NJ bashing just gets old. It says New Jersey and New York are voted the dirtiest even when considering the rural areas 'which is unfair for New York state' Gimme break.

I'm telling you all, there are so many people in the military who think NJ is in NY, or that all of NJ equals the Newark/Elizabeth area, etc. How many of those people surveyed have ever been to NJ? Or outside the Newark airport zone?

Last but not least, how can a state like Montana can be more recognized than NJ. I mean, come on, we have the Sopranos (or had), Atlantic City (love it/hate it), the history behind Trenton (love it/hate it, it's historical nonetheless) Frank Sinatra, Bruce Willis, I could go on for days and some of you could as well.

PS: not for nothing, I know the article says that NJ gets so many visitors because of Newark Airport, but then...why is NJ's tourism industry such a contributor to t the state budget??
I have an answer for all of your questions:

The list is crap, plain and simple.
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
http://www.statebrandsindex.com/docs/SBI_2006.pdf (broken link)

We are number 50th in recognition, as in dead last.

I've argued this before in this forum: if we had a 'first class city', with name recognition, NJ would be much more highly recognizable abroad. The fact NJ is sandwiched in between NYC and Philly does not help its cause either.
i agree with you 100% that having a universally famous major city - with an instantly identifiable "name brand" distinct from nyc and philly - would do wonders for new jersey's reputation both domestically and abroad. but of course the garden state doesn't have a city of that magnitude within its boundaries, and is instead composed of a million small suburban towns that are primarily linked together by their connection to nyc or philly.

at the same time, even though nj is a major component of two of the largest and most influential metro areas in the country, many outsiders unfamiliar with the nyc or philly regions do not associate nj with either city. this is because people get too hung up on state/political boundaries - they can't wrap their heads around the fact that a metropolitan area could be spread across multiple states, or that a core city and its suburbs can be located in separate, adjacent states.

the result is that jersey has always lacked a clear, unified identity, especially for outsiders. it's a state split in so many directions beyond the obvious north jersey/south jersey dichotomy: along with those hardcore north jerseyans who strongly identify with nyc and their south jersey counterparts who consider themselves philly folks first and foremost, there are plenty of people in central jersey (middlesex, somerset, mercer, and monmouth counties, among others), down the shore, in the western rural areas (warren and sussex counties), or in the deep south (cumberland county) who may not have a strong connection to nyc or philly.

it's because of this lack of identity that nj is vulnerable to cheap shots from both its neighbors (ny city, ny state, philly, and pennsylvania) as well as people across the country, many of whom have never stepped foot in the state, with the possible exception of the quick ride from newark airport to nyc. if nj had a famous city (or perhaps a major natural resource like the rockies), people would associate the state with those things rather than the industrial/odoriferous stereotypes. but with nothing else to go on, people stoop for the lowest common denominator. to me it shows how classless, uneducated, and/or pretentious they are, but i gotta admit that it still irritates me regardless.
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:07 PM
 
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i also have this little theory that many of the people out there who bash the garden state are actually insanely jealous of nyc. as a result, they look to bash nj as an indirect way of taking a shot at those big, bad, arrogant new yorkers - basically, picking on (what they perceive to be) its ugly duckling sibling. in their minds, it's as if nyc is the popular, good-looking jock while nj is his pimply little brother with braces and bad hygiene. so they go for the low-hanging fruit and direct their frustration at the little brother as a vicarious means of exacting revenge against their real target - nyc. it doesn't matter if you live in the beautiful mountains of warren county or the inner ring suburbs of philly or on a farm in cumberland county - to these outsiders, "jersey" means only one thing, even though in reality they don't know jack about the state.

i dunno, maybe i'm way off base here, but it's just a thought. i was born and raised in nyc, moved to north jersey as a kid, went through the schools in nj, and since college have lived in the city. so i'm always hearing people badmouth jersey, and i always have to defend it. it doesn't matter if it's people who grew up in the region like myself, or newcomers to the city - bashing on jersey seems to be fair game, and standard accepted practice. it's especially annoying coming from the newcomers who've lived in nyc for all of two seconds, but that's the thing about nyc (and especially manhattan): it's a great city, but it's also an arrogant, pretentious place with a massive superiority complex. this means that anything outside of the city is looked down upon, and god knows most people in the city look at nj as a backwater, regardless of whether it's hudson, hunterdon, or salem county - it's all the same to them.

and then the "new" new yorkers pick up on this and, in their zeal to adopt the "new york mentality", do the same as the natives. i have very little patience for this, considering that six months ago these idiots were living in the midwest or california or london or wherever. but i've seen it time and time again - even good friends of mine became obnoxious and condescending toward all things not manhattan (or hipster/yuppie brooklyn) within their first two months living in nyc. like i said, jersey seems to be especially fair game (think: "bridge and tunnel" remarks, deriding all new jerseyans as guidos even though i insist otherwise, etc).

basically, it's hip to bash jersey, whether you live in nyc, philly, or elsewhere in the country. it sucks, but it's true. the late night talk show hosts do it with complete impugnity, b/c it's not like they insulted someone's race or religion.

the way i look at it, living in jersey means that you always have to justify yourself. i know i have, and i haven't lived in the state since high school (although i'm right across the river, and only a stone's throw from my parents' house).
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:00 PM
 
810 posts, read 2,253,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbergen View Post
i also have this little theory that many of the people out there who bash the garden state are actually insanely jealous of nyc. as a result, they look to bash nj as an indirect way of taking a shot at those big, bad, arrogant new yorkers - basically, picking on (what they perceive to be) its ugly duckling sibling. in their minds, it's as if nyc is the popular, good-looking jock while nj is his pimply little brother with braces and bad hygiene. so they go for the low-hanging fruit and direct their frustration at the little brother as a vicarious means of exacting revenge against their real target - nyc. it doesn't matter if you live in the beautiful mountains of warren county or the inner ring suburbs of philly or on a farm in cumberland county - to these outsiders, "jersey" means only one thing, even though in reality they don't know jack about the state.

i dunno, maybe i'm way off base here, but it's just a thought. i was born and raised in nyc, moved to north jersey as a kid, went through the schools in nj, and since college have lived in the city. so i'm always hearing people badmouth jersey, and i always have to defend it. it doesn't matter if it's people who grew up in the region like myself, or newcomers to the city - bashing on jersey seems to be fair game, and standard accepted practice. it's especially annoying coming from the newcomers who've lived in nyc for all of two seconds, but that's the thing about nyc (and especially manhattan): it's a great city, but it's also an arrogant, pretentious place with a massive superiority complex. this means that anything outside of the city is looked down upon, and god knows most people in the city look at nj as a backwater, regardless of whether it's hudson, hunterdon, or salem county - it's all the same to them.

and then the "new" new yorkers pick up on this and, in their zeal to adopt the "new york mentality", do the same as the natives. i have very little patience for this, considering that six months ago these idiots were living in the midwest or california or london or wherever. but i've seen it time and time again - even good friends of mine became obnoxious and condescending toward all things not manhattan (or hipster/yuppie brooklyn) within their first two months living in nyc. like i said, jersey seems to be especially fair game (think: "bridge and tunnel" remarks, deriding all new jerseyans as guidos even though i insist otherwise, etc).

basically, it's hip to bash jersey, whether you live in nyc, philly, or elsewhere in the country. it sucks, but it's true. the late night talk show hosts do it with complete impugnity, b/c it's not like they insulted someone's race or religion.

the way i look at it, living in jersey means that you always have to justify yourself. i know i have, and i haven't lived in the state since high school (although i'm right across the river, and only a stone's throw from my parents' house).

And I bet all of those new comers live in "up-and-coming" neighborhoods infested with vermon. Then they act pretentious and look down on those that live in NJ.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:24 PM
 
Location: 38 38' 45" N, -90 20' 08" W
7,646 posts, read 11,385,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbergen View Post
i agree with you 100% that having a universally famous major city - with an instantly identifiable "name brand" distinct from nyc and philly - would do wonders for new jersey's reputation both domestically and abroad. but of course the garden state doesn't have a city of that magnitude within its boundaries, and is instead composed of a million small suburban towns that are primarily linked together by their connection to nyc or philly.

at the same time, even though nj is a major component of two of the largest and most influential metro areas in the country, many outsiders unfamiliar with the nyc or philly regions do not associate nj with either city. this is because people get too hung up on state/political boundaries - they can't wrap their heads around the fact that a metropolitan area could be spread across multiple states, or that a core city and its suburbs can be located in separate, adjacent states.

the result is that jersey has always lacked a clear, unified identity, especially for outsiders. it's a state split in so many directions beyond the obvious north jersey/south jersey dichotomy: along with those hardcore north jerseyans who strongly identify with nyc and their south jersey counterparts who consider themselves philly folks first and foremost, there are plenty of people in central jersey (middlesex, somerset, mercer, and monmouth counties, among others), down the shore, in the western rural areas (warren and sussex counties), or in the deep south (cumberland county) who may not have a strong connection to nyc or philly.

it's because of this lack of identity that nj is vulnerable to cheap shots from both its neighbors (ny city, ny state, philly, and pennsylvania) as well as people across the country, many of whom have never stepped foot in the state, with the possible exception of the quick ride from newark airport to nyc. if nj had a famous city (or perhaps a major natural resource like the rockies), people would associate the state with those things rather than the industrial/odoriferous stereotypes. but with nothing else to go on, people stoop for the lowest common denominator. to me it shows how classless, uneducated, and/or pretentious they are, but i gotta admit that it still irritates me regardless.
This and your other posts are two of the very best I've read here, and I agree with all of it. However, I must say, many of my dad's relatives, some who lived in Manhattan, and others that lived in Nassau County, were VERY dismissive of the Garden state. I think when my dad decided to leave the Bronx, (with my mom and myself in tow) in 1967, he likely absorbed a lot of grief from his family, all of who were city folk.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't ever underestimate the NYC superiority complex, as it pertains to NJ. I witnessed it first hand every time I went to Riverdale (Bronx), Marble Hill in Manhattan, Westchester County (Harrison/Rye) and other neighborhoods my dad had family in.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busch Boy View Post
And I bet all of those new comers live in "up-and-coming" neighborhoods infested with vermon. Then they act pretentious and look down on those that live in NJ.
EXACTLY. they think they're "keeping it real" by living in bushwick or places like that, but they're only fooling themselves.

i wouldn't live in the city if i couldn't afford the rent on a decent apartment close to work. otherwise, i'd just live with my parents and commute from nj.

this one girl i met who'd never lived in the nyc area, but was planning on moving to the city shortly, was raving about how the city is so "gritty cool" (her exact words) but was worried about finding a place with cheaper rent. i told her to look in the outer boroughs or hudson county and she scoffed, particularly at the notion of living nj: "EWW, I'M NOT LIVING IN JERSEY"

when i pointed out that jersey city, hoboken, newark (not to mention queens, the south bronx, brooklyn, etc) are plenty "gritty cool" in their own right, she didn't say anything. i thought, "what, it's not cool enough for you? merely gritty?" give me a break.

actually, she did say something about "wanting a new york, ny address", so the outer boroughs were out of the question. and GOD FORBID telling her friends back home that she lived in (gulp) dirty jersey. she'd immediately cease to be cool in their eyes, and may as well slink back home to live in her parents' basement! (sarcasm off now)

anyway she's a pretentious faux-artist "keeping it real", so she ended up moving to that sh*thole known as bushwick, and of course is miserable since the neighborhood is still quite dirty and dangerous - not to mention she's living in extremely cramped quarters with multiple roommates. yet it's "hip" to live there right now, so she continues to stay there.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
This and your other posts are two of the very best I've read here, and I agree with all of it. However, I must say, many of my dad's relatives, some who lived in Manhattan, and others that lived in Nassau County, were VERY dismissive of the Garden state. I think when my dad decided to leave the Bronx, (with my mom and myself in tow) in 1967, he likely absorbed a lot of grief from his family, all of who were city folk.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't ever underestimate the NYC superiority complex, as it pertains to NJ. I witnessed it first hand every time I went to Riverdale (Bronx), Marble Hill in Manhattan, Westchester County (Harrison/Rye) and other neighborhoods my dad had family in.
totally agree with you, man. from my experience, born-and-raised manhattanites have the largest superiority complex (i've heard some of them refer to themselves as "the only true new yorkers") but i've also met plenty of people from the outer boroughs, westchester, and long island who have zero respect for jersey as well. for instance, my brother's girlfriend grew up in queens and always rags on nj. she absolutely refuses to move to nj under any circumstances, even if she ends up marrying my brother, but when i ask why she hates the state she never gives me a concrete answer: "i don't know...it's JERSEY! JERSEY SUCKS! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!!!"

um, ok. i like her otherwise but it's quite annoying to hear this from someone who might end up becoming family.

another thing: one time i took some of my queens/long island friends into bergen county to get some food, go shopping in paramus, etc. and these guys never leave nyc/long island, so they were shocked that the area wasn't a complete s*&#hole. one of them told me, in all seriousness, that he was expecting it to look like the worst parts of the bronx. and they seemed surprised that my parents' VERY average, split level middle class home was sitting on a nice, tree-lined suburban street rather than on top of a landfill. and we didn't pass through the "elite" towns in the county/state, by any means.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Ocean County
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Originally Posted by pbergen View Post
totally agree with you, man. from my experience, born-and-raised manhattanites have the largest superiority complex (i've heard some of them refer to themselves as "the only true new yorkers") but i've also met plenty of people from the outer boroughs, westchester, and long island who have zero respect for jersey as well. for instance, my brother's girlfriend grew up in queens and always rags on nj. she absolutely refuses to move to nj under any circumstances, even if she ends up marrying my brother, but when i ask why she hates the state she never gives me a concrete answer: "i don't know...it's JERSEY! JERSEY SUCKS! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!!!"

um, ok. i like her otherwise but it's quite annoying to hear this from someone who might end up becoming family.

another thing: one time i took some of my queens/long island friends into bergen county to get some food, go shopping in paramus, etc. and these guys never leave nyc/long island, so they were shocked that the area wasn't a complete s*&#hole. one of them told me, in all seriousness, that he was expecting it to look like the worst parts of the bronx. and they seemed surprised that my parents' VERY average, split level middle class home was sitting on a nice, tree-lined suburban street rather than on top of a landfill. and we didn't pass through the "elite" towns in the county/state, by any means.
This scenario is true but not 100 percent. Where I live and many parts of Monmouth and Ocean Counties people flock from Staten Island to live here. I don't see many folks or any flocking from Jersey to live in Staten Island.
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Old 05-24-2008, 05:29 PM
 
Location: In My Own Little World. . .
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I live in Oklahoma now, which also has an image problem. When I was flying from NJ to OK, I met a man on the plane from CA. When I told hiim I was moving from NJ to OK, he said "I guess this will be the first time you'll see some cows and horses." Hello! -- no more than 3 miles from my house in central NJ there was an entire heard of cows, lots of farmland and, yes, horses! In fact, my daughter rode for 8 years in NJ.

I explained NJ was absolutely beautiful where I came from, and the only reason we were moving was the COL. I don't think I convinced him, though. Who cares? Now I'm defending OK to outsiders.
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Old 05-24-2008, 06:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JERSEY MAN View Post
This scenario is true but not 100 percent. Where I live and many parts of Monmouth and Ocean Counties people flock from Staten Island to live here. I don't see many folks or any flocking from Jersey to live in Staten Island.
you're right, lots of staten islanders have moved to nj over the years. it's a natural progression if you think about it: from the cramped, urban neighborhoods of brooklyn to the much more suburban environment of staten island to the resolutely suburban (and in some cases rural) new jersey. schools in many nj towns are also far better than on staten island; add in the hefty nyc property tax and it's not surprising why so many people have made the move.

plus, staten island has an image problem of its own. i always roll my eyes whenever i hear people from the three other outer boroughs (including some of my childhood friends from queens) complain about how they get no respect from manhattanites, and then in the next breath they diss on staten island, saying it "doesn't really count as part of nyc".

staten island is, unfortunately, viewed as the black sheep of the five boroughs. so who knows, maybe the people there empathize a little bit with jersey's uphill battle to fight the negative stereotypes. plus, if you look on a map, it even looks like SI should be a part of jersey rather than nyc; why SI ended up a part of ny instead is beyond me (i realize that SI didn't become part of nyc proper until 1898, but it's been a part of ny state rather than nj from the very beginning).
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