Mike Gravel for President 2008 (Union, Dover: contractors, income, taxes)

[tandcookies]

Cucullin when you ever have spare time, do you read books? If so I bet you would really like Vince Flynn. Flynn (I'm pretty sure libertarian) writes the best thrillers usually with some politics and terror.

[The Michigan Man]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

Eh, I would disagree. Basic health considerations and an educational system which allows the intelligent to thrive improves society as a whole. Its putting a somewhat equal footing ground across the basics, and letting the rest be individual choices.

Civilizations existed without state-sponsored healthcare and education before, no? I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that it's not a need.

[wileynj]

Originally Posted by The Michigan Man

Universal health care and education are not basic NEEDs. And they aren't libertarian policies.

Seriously? You think health care and education should be considered a luxury? I'm with CuCullin on this one...

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by tandcookies

Cucullin when you ever have spare time, do you read books? If so I bet you would really like Vince Flynn. Flynn (I'm pretty sure libertarian) writes the best thrillers usually with some politics and terror.

All the time on the train Its what I do with my lengthy commute. I'll check him out, thanks

Originally Posted by The Michigan Man

Civilizations existed without state-sponsored healthcare and education before, no? I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that it's not a need.

Perhaps I should clarify. I consider them basic needs to create an equitable society by which each individual is granted the right to make choices, choices devoid of concerns over whether or not that gash in their head can get sewn up by a real doctor or some jackass with thread, and the education to allow those choices to be made.

I think that in order to provide a society where the best will always float to the top, improving society as a whole, they will need individual responsibility. I also think that to achieve this individual responsibility, those basics need to be in place. Now, I don't support something like the NHS, especially in its current state; I would much prefer a voucher system (by way of tax credits). Education as well. It creates a system of direct competition which can only serve to reduce expense and improve services, as the credits would be discretionary to the individual.

*shrug* Call me a conservative libertarian, I guess.

[njkate]

Originally Posted by wileynj

Well it looks like Hilary may finally be out of the running ; ( I will not vote for either Obama or McCain. My new candidate is Senator Mike Gravel. I think he is exactly what this country needs!!! How Mike Stands on the Issues | Mike Gravel For President 2008

Hmm i do agree with most of his views.
A compltete withdrawl from Iraq in 120 days is a bit of a stretch...as long as it starts though..
Not to warm & fuzzy on his immigration views,,,

Sad but I think it may be to late to get the word out because if what I just read is true sounds very promising

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by njkate

Not to warm & fuzzy on his immigration views,,,

I'm curious.... why?

You're never going to be able to stop illegal immigration, there is just way too much border to cover. This way, you create a worker program where they get taxed, without full services, and we reap the benefits as taxpayers because our costs are offset. There are jobs that many americans won't take; by the same token, if an immigrant will, and they will have to pay taxes, that means minimum wage requirements must be met. It means jobs that require more skill will require more pay, bolstering the working class's income, while at the same time creating a reduction in overall taxes (as well as removing some costs of border patrols, which we are ill-equipped to handle anyway). It creates a program by which immigrants can be easily monitored, because if they can get in to work, why would they purchase illegal documentation, or bribe INS employees to get in?

I think it would do a far better job of managing the immigration issue than to ignore the situation, and put on this proud face that we are "defending our borders from terrrrrrrism"

[wileynj]

Originally Posted by njkate

Hmm i do agree with most of his views.
A compltete withdrawl from Iraq in 120 days is a bit of a stretch...as long as it starts though..
Not to warm & fuzzy on his immigration views,,,

Sad but I think it may be to late to get the word out because if what I just read is true sounds very promising

I too like his ideas... 120 days may be a stretch but like you said, at least it's a start...

[nicolem]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

I'm curious.... why?

You're never going to be able to stop illegal immigration, there is just way too much border to cover. This way, you create a worker program where they get taxed, without full services, and we reap the benefits as taxpayers because our costs are offset. There are jobs that many americans won't take; by the same token, if an immigrant will, and they will have to pay taxes, that means minimum wage requirements must be met. It means jobs that require more skill will require more pay, bolstering the working class's income, while at the same time creating a reduction in overall taxes (as well as removing some costs of border patrols, which we are ill-equipped to handle anyway). It creates a program by which immigrants can be easily monitored, because if they can get in to work, why would they purchase illegal documentation, or bribe INS employees to get in?

I think it would do a far better job of managing the immigration issue than to ignore the situation, and put on this proud face that we are "defending our borders from terrrrrrrism"

Jobs Americans won't take? That is simply not true-just a rally cry of the open border lobbyists and the huge corporations who want to provide no benefits and $2 an hour to illegals. We Americans did all of these jobs for years. Americans don't want to be drywallers, build homes? That used to be a great job. With the increased illegal alien invasions, many of those sectors wages have decreased significantly and this was during the housing boom. In true capitalism, those wages should have risen, providing good jobs and benefits for Americans. By bringing these illegals in-they are depressing wage and benefit growth big time. I have read numerous stories about hs kids in the west who want to work at McDonalds etc. but the jobs go to the illegals.

And yes-we are the USA-we could stop this illegal invasion in a minute if we wanted to . The national guard could seal the border in a manner of days if we had a president who really wanted to. We could have mass deportations if we wanted to. It is not a matter of not being able to-it is a matter of the powers to be not wanting to.

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by nicolem

Jobs Americans won't take? That is simply not true-just a rally cry of the open border lobbyists and the huge corporations who want to provide no benefits and $2 an hour to illegals. We Americans did all of these jobs for years. Americans don't want to be drywallers, build homes? That used to be a great job.

Bah, load of crap. They still are, and they still do. Its the industry I work in.

Under an open border program, companies would not be able to pay $2/hr (benefits are up to the company anyways). So don't go crying about that one, because 10,000 companies not handling employee taxes and wages correctly is a hell of alot easier to track than 10,000,000 illegal aliens.

Many americans will not take a job they feel is "beneath" them, its true. And as a point of note, the McDonald's by me doesn't have any illegals, its mostly students and the retired. Well maybe its because its more rural?

Nah, that doesn't work. Because here in NYC, if I stop into the Burger King around the corner, its filled with hispanics - hispanics who are legally here, speak english, live in NYC, several of them paying their way through college. Good people.

Bzzz... wrong!

We do *not* have the money or manpower to patrol all of our borders. What, are you one of those electrified fence people? Lets not bring silliness into the equation, and drop the "we could if we wanted to" argument, because its a farce.

While we're at it, lets not start some 9/11 chant. When you sift through rubble, tear apart cars, eating crappy army food while looking for body parts, then you've earned that right. I'm sick of seeing that day abused by people as a chant when all they did was watch the f'ing news.

[nicolem]

Originally Posted by CuCullin

Bah, load of crap. They still are, and they still do. Its the industry I work in.

Under an open border program, companies would not be able to pay $2/hr (benefits are up to the company anyways). So don't go crying about that one, because 10,000 companies not handling employee taxes and wages correctly is a hell of alot easier to track than 10,000,000 illegal aliens.

Many americans will not take a job they feel is "beneath" them, its true. And as a point of note, the McDonald's by me doesn't have any illegals, its mostly students and the retired. Well maybe its because its more rural?

Nah, that doesn't work. Because here in NYC, if I stop into the Burger King around the corner, its filled with hispanics - hispanics who are legally here, speak english, live in NYC, several of them paying their way through college. Good people.

Bzzz... wrong!

We do *not* have the money or manpower to patrol all of our borders. What, are you one of those electrified fence people? Lets not bring silliness into the equation, and drop the "we could if we wanted to" argument, because its a farce.
While we're at it, lets not start some 9/11 chant. When you sift through rubble, tear apart cars, eating crappy army food while looking for body parts, then you've earned that right. I'm sick of seeing that day abused by people as a chant when all they did was watch the f'ing news.

Silliness? Securing our borders is silly? Well that is about the silliest thing I ever heard. Oh I am one of those people who want to secure our borders? OMG I am an extreme wacko

Just what did I say about 9/11? You accuse me of abusing 9-11? How dare you! Where exactly did I do that? Where did I metion or reference 9-11- I think you are the one with the problem-I never once alluded to or mentioned 9-11!!. You have NO IDEA my connection to 9-11 and who I lost on that day so don't accuse me of something that I did not do!