What happened to Irvington, NJ????? (Newark, Elizabeth: low income, for sale, crimes)

[wileynj]

murder today in irvington! 4 dead and the killer tried to burn down the house to cover up the killings. There were children killed as well... sick bastid! I hope they catch him/her and repeat the same torture.

[Yankeerose00]

You are so right. I don't think that being poor = these things, but I think that communities that are poor get the shaft. I really believe most people living in poor communities are decent, but they are not going to get the better services because their voice does not get heard.

With all due respect, this sounds exactly like the psycho-babble fluff that skirts the real issue of the problem.
I grew up in NJ and it breaks my heart to see towns that USED to be nice towns, USED to be safe towns full of working class people. Not rich people. Just lower-middle class laborers like my parents were. The people that used to live in these towns like Irvington and Elizabeth (where I'm from) still had pride and it showed.
Then somwhere around the late 60's-80's the scum moves in and cries about being poor? Well let me give these people a word of advice. If you drop out of school and start having babies at 15, you are going to be poor. If you decide that your crack habit is more important than anything else, you are going to be poor.

Sorry but I hate when people try to be PC and say that "towns have changed" like a town is some living, breathing element that can dictate how its people live. It's the other way around. People are what change a town. Blame the people. The government can throw money hand over fist at a town and it's not going to change unless the people take the first step.

[spotlight114]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

With all due respect, this sounds exactly like the psycho-babble fluff that skirts the real issue of the problem.
I grew up in NJ and it breaks my heart to see towns that USED to be nice towns, USED to be safe towns full of working class people. Not rich people. Just lower-middle class laborers like my parents were. The people that used to live in these towns like Irvington and Elizabeth (where I'm from) still had pride and it showed.
Then somwhere around the late 60's-80's the scum moves in and cries about being poor? Well let me give these people a word of advice. If you drop out of school and start having babies at 15, you are going to be poor. If you decide that your crack habit is more important than anything else, you are going to be poor.

Sorry but I hate when people try to be PC and say that "towns have changed" like a town is some living, breathing element that can dictate how its people live. It's the other way around. People are what change a town. Blame the people. The government can throw money hand over fist at a town and it's not going to change unless the people take the first step.

You make it seem so simple....I think the crime and decline of these cities has a bit to do with jobs leaving these communities and basically creating the end of "lower-middle class laborers" like your parents...

[EEEPNJ]

Originally Posted by wileynj

murder today in irvington! 4 dead and the killer tried to burn down the house to cover up the killings. There were children killed as well... sick bastid! I hope they catch him/her and repeat the same torture.

I heard this on the way home today and totally thought of this post too Wiley.

[Fairfax Mom]

I agree with Yankeerose - if you cant afford to have kids - WHY ARE YOU HAVING THEM? If you are so poor and on welfare - what gives you the right to have kids? WHY? SO the kid can suffer like you?

[doc1]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

With all due respect, this sounds exactly like the psycho-babble fluff that skirts the real issue of the problem.
I grew up in NJ and it breaks my heart to see towns that USED to be nice towns, USED to be safe towns full of working class people. Not rich people. Just lower-middle class laborers like my parents were. The people that used to live in these towns like Irvington and Elizabeth (where I'm from) still had pride and it showed.
Then somwhere around the late 60's-80's the scum moves in and cries about being poor? Well let me give these people a word of advice. If you drop out of school and start having babies at 15, you are going to be poor. If you decide that your crack habit is more important than anything else, you are going to be poor.

Sorry but I hate when people try to be PC and say that "towns have changed" like a town is some living, breathing element that can dictate how its people live. It's the other way around. People are what change a town. Blame the people. The government can throw money hand over fist at a town and it's not going to change unless the people take the first step.

So true. When adults take no responsibility for their decisions their life will never improve. Perpetual victimhood won't get one very far.

[Yankeerose00]

So true. When adults take no responsibility for their decisions their life will never improve. Perpetual victimhood won't get one very far.

Exactly. This is the "chicken-egg" argument. People will argue that these areas are full of crime because there are no jobs. Meanwhile, it's the crackheads and gangsters themselves who drive any potential for jobs away.
My dad used to work for the city of Elizabeth and worked on some "urban renewal" type program where they actually FOUND jobs for people in the ghettos. What happened? Most of them never showed up for work, or worked two days and quit, or stole from the job and got fired.

I think it's an insult to the poor to say that poor=crime. There are plenty of poor people in this world who manage to NOT steal, do crack, murder, join a gang, pop out baby after baby, etc. There are plenty of people unemployed and looking for work who manage to not become a gang-banger.

That is why I'm convinced these areas will NEVER change. Ever. The people living in Irvington will never change unless the change is handed to them on a silver platter and even then if it requires getting off their @ss and being responsible, they're not going to do it. So what's the answer? Raise property taxes yet again? Let me tell you, I'm one of the biggest fans of NJ and I'm proud to call it my homestate. However, once you live in other states and see how other places manage to get buy without taxing its residents to death, it makes you see NJ in a different light. You realize how corrupt the state is. It makes you realize that you can't throw money at a problem and it will go away. I'm embarrased to say I was born in Elizabeth. It breaks my heart to see someplace like Warinanko park knowing I used to play there as a child and then to see it now.

Anyway, maybe if I grew up wealthy, one could convince me that poverty leads to crime. But common sense and experience tells me otherwise. Take a look at areas around Appalacia in states like Kentucky/Tennessee. They are considered to be the most poverty stricken areas in the United State. We're not talking blue collar, we are talking absolute poverty. Remarkably, they are also some of the safest areas. I just don't see how making excuses for gangster crackheads is helping them or anyone else for that matter. It's certainly not helping the image of NJ.

[Yankeerose00]

Thank you anyone who sent me DMs. I'm sorry but I don't know how to reply. I click on it and it keeps taking me back to the post. :P

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

Meanwhile, it's the crackheads and gangsters themselves who drive any potential for jobs away.

Not accurate. The jobs simply "left." Post WWII prosperity spurred the growth of suburbs. In other words, those who could afford to leave, did. Only in the 1950s it wasn't really about escaping crime and poverty because our cities were still in relatively good shape. It was more about the white picket fence and the big house-the stereotypical American Dream. This is what fueled the growth of towns like those on the periphery of places like Trenton. When my dad was a kid growing up in Hamilton Township it was podunk-now it's bursting at the seams with lots of folks who can trace their ancestry to Trenton.

After the people left because of the booming economy, the jobs left because of the global economy. All of New Jersey's cities were primarily manufacturing centers. Newark has been able to make somewhat of a comeback downtown because of it's white collar jobs, but no one is making anything anymore. Trenton once made cigars, pottery, wire rope, rubber, etc... Now the Chinese make it all. So now we're left with cities that have no people and no jobs. I spent much of my early life in Trenton-the cities did not just all of a sudden "turn bad" causing industry to uproot itself and fly away.

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

I think it's an insult to the poor to say that poor=crime. There are plenty of poor people in this world who manage to NOT steal, do crack, murder, join a gang, pop out baby after baby, etc. There are plenty of people unemployed and looking for work who manage to not become a gang-banger.

The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong-but that's the way to bet.

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

That is why I'm convinced these areas will NEVER change. Ever. The people living in Irvington will never change unless the change is handed to them on a silver platter and even then if it requires getting off their @ss and being responsible, they're not going to do it. So what's the answer? Raise property taxes yet again? Let me tell you, I'm one of the biggest fans of NJ and I'm proud to call it my homestate. However, once you live in other states and see how other places manage to get buy without taxing its residents to death, it makes you see NJ in a different light. You realize how corrupt the state is. It makes you realize that you can't throw money at a problem and it will go away. I'm embarrased to say I was born in Elizabeth. It breaks my heart to see someplace like Warinanko park knowing I used to play there as a child and then to see it now.

Just as the problems aren't that simple, neither are the solutions. By the way, I was born in Trenton and used to play in Columbus Park where as another poster pointed out, people are now beaten and robbed. I'm still damn proud to have been born there.

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

Anyway, maybe if I grew up wealthy, one could convince me that poverty leads to crime. But common sense and experience tells me otherwise. Take a look at areas around Appalacia in states like Kentucky/Tennessee. They are considered to be the most poverty stricken areas in the United State. We're not talking blue collar, we are talking absolute poverty. Remarkably, they are also some of the safest areas. I just don't see how making excuses for gangster crackheads is helping them or anyone else for that matter. It's certainly not helping the image of NJ.

What you don't have in Appalachia is population density, which is a HUGE factor in the condition of our cities. Also, Appalachia does have it's problems, including, but not limited to rampant teenage pregnancy, welfare fraud, methamphetamine/moonshine production, and marijuana cultivation. Daniel Boone National Forest in Kentucky has one of the largest spraying operations for marijuana interdiction in the entire country. Poverty causes problems irrespective of geography.

[Yankeerose00]

Yes, factory jobs left NJ and other parts of the US. That is not news to anyone. But to say that people are crackheads and gangsters because the jobs left is a bit of a stretch.
It was the Irish, Italian, Polish and Russian immigrants who were hit hardest by the loss of factory jobs. Do you see them joining gangs and becoming crackheads. No, they got off their butts and found work. There is always an excuse for people who choose a life of crime rather than working. There is always an excuse for someone who would rather steal a car or stereo rather than work for it.
As far as population density around Appalacia, again, it's making excuses. So is that why Irvington is so bad? The population density? Well, NJ is the most densely populated state so by that logic, the whole state should be one big ghetto.

Also, Appalachia does have it's problems, including, but not limited to rampant teenage pregnancy, welfare fraud, methamphetamine/moonshine production, and marijuana cultivation.

Fraud? Yes Pregnant teens? Yes. Drugs? Yes. What you don't see is a freaking warzone that makes you lock your doors and have your cell phone ready to hit 911 just by driving through the neighborhood. Poverty ain't pretty. Nobody is denying that. But at least the people in these rurual places have an excuse for not finding a job. There are no jobs! In a place like Irvington you're telling me that they can't walk to a convenient store or gas station? There is no excuse for not working other than laziness.

Let's pretend a mall opens in Irvington and the entire mall will employ only the citizens of that town. What percentage of the town would show up for work and work hard to keep their job vs those that would rather keep living their gangster lifestyle?

I'm a hardcore Democrat but even I can see that there are only so many government programs and handouts and section 8 housing you can provide. The person on the receiving end has got to want to change themselves. It's not "the man's" fault and to keep implying that is laughable.