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It is kind of a dumb assertion to begin with because it is lumping ALL minorities together - so there will still be the same divisions we have now.
Sometimes I wonder WHY there even had to be differentiations among humankind... I mean, if you are viewing it from a spiritual point of view, why would God not have just made us all one color - any color - purple even. Because it is sad that it is 2008 and race is STILL such a divisive issue.
Skin color is just that - skin color. It speaks nothing of the person, heart & soul that is underneath.
You "bootstrap pullers" all have a point. "When I was a kid, my parents worked hard. They instilled a work ethic," etc. etc. "They never took handouts." Fine. Dandy. I get it. Really, I do. The problem I have with all this is that your families had the assurance that their efforts would be rewarded, and would not be thwarted, either by government, corporate entities or other citizens. The problem is, these guarantees have never been equally applied to all citizens. Do you actually believe that African Americans have had the same opportunities, either political, social or economic, that your families have had? One of the major sources of the disparity in progress between majorities and minorities in this society has been the calculated efforts by said majority to keep the wealth in its own hands. You can crow all you want about government interference and intervention, and the so-called problems you see in the cultural outlook of said minorities, but when you repress a group long enough, that group soon learns to have lesser expectations. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy that comes from the manner in which this country's societal mores, and economic system, has been set up. You can't expect people to pull themselves up from their bootstraps when they don't have any bootstraps and are kept from acquiring the means to get them. When they want to buy bootstraps, you won't hire them. When they wish to make them, you erect legal and economic barriers to keep them from obtaining the raw materials. When they ask you to give them some, you condemn them for being dependent and having a victim mentality. And when they get desperate and try to steal them, you put them in jail and confiscate their assets through forfeiture.
I agree with the gist of your post but the part i highlighted really irks me. I'm a white guy who lives, by choice, in a neighborhood where I'm the clear minority. In fact, with the exception of two young couples that rent in a building across the street, my wife and I are the only white homeowners on the block. I say this because I hear that a lot - this idea that white people "look out for each other." Besides the fact that it would get a chuckle from most white people it's flawed for a couple of reasons.
I'm not trying to say that there aren't a lot of white people who just don't like black people because they're black. There most certainly are. But by and large, those people aren't in a position to do anything about their racist sentiments.
And that's my point. Half of all people living in poverty are white. I know blacks are at a much higher percentage but really, if there was some white conspiracy to make ourselves rich at the expense of black people do you think we'd let 18 million of "our people" live in poverty? No one in this country, especially white people, really acknowledge class - except when they pause to talk about "the white trash" or belittle their neighbors or someone at the mall for having "no class." Whether they talk about it in academic terms or not americans are incredibly class conscious, they just don't think it applies to people of a different race. And my black and asian neighbors do it to each other and to me. Everyone here thinks we have a lot of money because we're white. In reality, even though our incomes are probably slightly higher, the net worth of most of our neighbors far exceeds our own.
The wealthiest 5% of americans own 60% of the country's wealth. The bottom 80% own 14% of the wealth. Now, sure that top 5% is over represented by whites (and asians.) But to say that most rich people are white therefore most white people are rich is not cogent. The rich look out for themselves first and for their clique next.
Now, there is a history in this country of using immigrants in this country to break unions and suppress wages. You can throw black folks in there with immigrant groups. Prior to WWI you wouldn't have found many blacks in northern cities. Sharecroppers were given train tickets to northern factories to replace all of the white workers off to war. When the whites returned they were expected to step down but it wasn't really a lasting problem because the roaring 20s solved most urban unemployment problems. Enter WWII, a much larger war effort, and now busing to northern factories. When the war was over most of the men sent for their families if they hadn't already been joined by them. The black population exploded. Enter white servicemen returning and another boom period for the american economy. Then 20 years later the factories start closing down and moving to the south, to mexico, to asia.
Black families in northern cities, rural peasantry for all intents and purposes, have one-generation to adopt to family life in an industrialized, urban environment while deindustrialization is just starting to set in. Now add to that FHA lending rules that wouldn't loan to whites or blacks for properties in an integrated neighborhood. Want a home-equity loan? Here are the most unfavorable terms possible. Want a house in the suburbs? Here's a check. Just stick with your own kind . . . and btw, those rules were in effect until 1972.
So while jobs are disappearing and urban whites are following the new economy to the suburbs home values are stagnant or falling in the city. As the census tracks the hollowing out of the cities, public policy that already favored the suburbs at the expense of the city get even more drastic. Money for schools and basic municipal services shrivel up.
You can throw both subtle and overt racism in to the mix and it's not a pretty picture for the formerly working-class blacks in the inner city. People literally became trapped. By the 80's people in the suburbs were trying to figure out containment plans. You had angry white man movies like "Escape from New York" (which is laughable now) and as crime peaked in the early 90's we got "Falling Down."
Robert Moses was a flaming racist and was ahead of the curve. He's the reason that the Long Island Parkway bridges are too low for buses. He didn't want black people getting out there. I'm 100% serious. If you wanted to get to Robert Moses State Park on a bus your trip would take twice as long and the buses had to park at the western end of the beach. He also did his best to keep a lot of city pools segregated. He pretty much destroyed the South Bronx. The only reason my grandparents met is because my grandmother (who is irish) had to move from apartment to apartment to escape Moses' bulldozers making way for the Major Deegan Expwy.
My basic point . . . sure a bunch of rich, mostly white men run the country. It doesn't mean that the rest of us get a seat at the table. Long before they considered the benefits of african slavery they were using white people from other countries.
U R 100% right. There have been many studies done that say "race" can't be scientifically determined ANYWAY. It should not be the big deal that it is - but it is. Sad.
Why do people keep saying this? Are there not haplotype studies, etc. that link specific genetic traits to what are commonly viewed as "races"?
Actually, 80% of the genes of African Americans are Black African. So, that is not true actually.
Also, 33% of Whites in the US have some recnt Black ancestry. While the percentage of those that have it is supposedly around 2.3%, that doesn't take into account mixture that might have occurred before arrival here.
If race can't "scientifically be determined" as some claim... how can anyone determinge that 33% of any race are 2.3% of some other race.
If this sort of analysis is valid, then clearly race can be determined "scientifically"?
I agree with the gist of your post but the part i highlighted really irks me. I'm a white guy who lives, by choice, in a neighborhood where I'm the clear minority. In fact, with the exception of two young couples that rent in a building across the street, my wife and I are the only white homeowners on the block. I say this because I hear that a lot - this idea that white people "look out for each other." Besides the fact that it would get a chuckle from most white people it's flawed for a couple of reasons.
I'm not trying to say that there aren't a lot of white people who just don't like black people because they're black. There most certainly are. But by and large, those people aren't in a position to do anything about their racist sentiments.
And that's my point. Half of all people living in poverty are white. I know blacks are at a much higher percentage but really, if there was some white conspiracy to make ourselves rich at the expense of black people do you think we'd let 18 million of "our people" live in poverty? No one in this country, especially white people, really acknowledge class - except when they pause to talk about "the white trash" or belittle their neighbors or someone at the mall for having "no class." Whether they talk about it in academic terms or not americans are incredibly class conscious, they just don't think it applies to people of a different race. And my black and asian neighbors do it to each other and to me. Everyone here thinks we have a lot of money because we're white. In reality, even though our incomes are probably slightly higher, the net worth of most of our neighbors far exceeds our own.
The wealthiest 5% of americans own 60% of the country's wealth. The bottom 80% own 14% of the wealth. Now, sure that top 5% is over represented by whites (and asians.) But to say that most rich people are white therefore most white people are rich is not cogent. The rich look out for themselves first and for their clique next.
Now, there is a history in this country of using immigrants in this country to break unions and suppress wages. You can throw black folks in there with immigrant groups. Prior to WWI you wouldn't have found many blacks in northern cities. Sharecroppers were given train tickets to northern factories to replace all of the white workers off to war. When the whites returned they were expected to step down but it wasn't really a lasting problem because the roaring 20s solved most urban unemployment problems. Enter WWII, a much larger war effort, and now busing to northern factories. When the war was over most of the men sent for their families if they hadn't already been joined by them. The black population exploded. Enter white servicemen returning and another boom period for the american economy. Then 20 years later the factories start closing down and moving to the south, to mexico, to asia.
Black families in northern cities, rural peasantry for all intents and purposes, have one-generation to adopt to family life in an industrialized, urban environment while deindustrialization is just starting to set in. Now add to that FHA lending rules that wouldn't loan to whites or blacks for properties in an integrated neighborhood. Want a home-equity loan? Here are the most unfavorable terms possible. Want a house in the suburbs? Here's a check. Just stick with your own kind . . . and btw, those rules were in effect until 1972.
So while jobs are disappearing and urban whites are following the new economy to the suburbs home values are stagnant or falling in the city. As the census tracks the hollowing out of the cities, public policy that already favored the suburbs at the expense of the city get even more drastic. Money for schools and basic municipal services shrivel up.
You can throw both subtle and overt racism in to the mix and it's not a pretty picture for the formerly working-class blacks in the inner city. People literally became trapped. By the 80's people in the suburbs were trying to figure out containment plans. You had angry white man movies like "Escape from New York" (which is laughable now) and as crime peaked in the early 90's we got "Falling Down."
Robert Moses was a flaming racist and was ahead of the curve. He's the reason that the Long Island Parkway bridges are too low for buses. He didn't want black people getting out there. I'm 100% serious. If you wanted to get to Robert Moses State Park on a bus your trip would take twice as long and the buses had to park at the western end of the beach. He also did his best to keep a lot of city pools segregated. He pretty much destroyed the South Bronx. The only reason my grandparents met is because my grandmother (who is irish) had to move from apartment to apartment to escape Moses' bulldozers making way for the Major Deegan Expwy.
My basic point . . . sure a bunch of rich, mostly white men run the country. It doesn't mean that the rest of us get a seat at the table. Long before they considered the benefits of african slavery they were using white people from other countries.
Great post - I will agree with you on that. The wealthy elite of our country are doing all that they can to make sure that they remain an exclusive club. Now, that is not based solely on race...they don't want just any ol' white slob like you or me among their ranks either! But much as that is true, they'd probably freak out a little more if their child married a black person than a white person from a lesser "class."
I agree with the gist of your post but the part i highlighted really irks me. I'm a white guy who lives, by choice, in a neighborhood where I'm the clear minority. In fact, with the exception of two young couples that rent in a building across the street, my wife and I are the only white homeowners on the block. I say this because I hear that a lot - this idea that white people "look out for each other." Besides the fact that it would get a chuckle from most white people it's flawed for a couple of reasons.
I'm not trying to say that there aren't a lot of white people who just don't like black people because they're black. There most certainly are. But by and large, those people aren't in a position to do anything about their racist sentiments.
And that's my point. Half of all people living in poverty are white. I know blacks are at a much higher percentage but really, if there was some white conspiracy to make ourselves rich at the expense of black people do you think we'd let 18 million of "our people" live in poverty? No one in this country, especially white people, really acknowledge class - except when they pause to talk about "the white trash" or belittle their neighbors or someone at the mall for having "no class." Whether they talk about it in academic terms or not americans are incredibly class conscious, they just don't think it applies to people of a different race. And my black and asian neighbors do it to each other and to me. Everyone here thinks we have a lot of money because we're white. In reality, even though our incomes are probably slightly higher, the net worth of most of our neighbors far exceeds our own.
The wealthiest 5% of americans own 60% of the country's wealth. The bottom 80% own 14% of the wealth. Now, sure that top 5% is over represented by whites (and asians.) But to say that most rich people are white therefore most white people are rich is not cogent. The rich look out for themselves first and for their clique next.
Now, there is a history in this country of using immigrants in this country to break unions and suppress wages. You can throw black folks in there with immigrant groups. Prior to WWI you wouldn't have found many blacks in northern cities. Sharecroppers were given train tickets to northern factories to replace all of the white workers off to war. When the whites returned they were expected to step down but it wasn't really a lasting problem because the roaring 20s solved most urban unemployment problems. Enter WWII, a much larger war effort, and now busing to northern factories. When the war was over most of the men sent for their families if they hadn't already been joined by them. The black population exploded. Enter white servicemen returning and another boom period for the american economy. Then 20 years later the factories start closing down and moving to the south, to mexico, to asia.
Black families in northern cities, rural peasantry for all intents and purposes, have one-generation to adopt to family life in an industrialized, urban environment while deindustrialization is just starting to set in. Now add to that FHA lending rules that wouldn't loan to whites or blacks for properties in an integrated neighborhood. Want a home-equity loan? Here are the most unfavorable terms possible. Want a house in the suburbs? Here's a check. Just stick with your own kind . . . and btw, those rules were in effect until 1972.
So while jobs are disappearing and urban whites are following the new economy to the suburbs home values are stagnant or falling in the city. As the census tracks the hollowing out of the cities, public policy that already favored the suburbs at the expense of the city get even more drastic. Money for schools and basic municipal services shrivel up.
You can throw both subtle and overt racism in to the mix and it's not a pretty picture for the formerly working-class blacks in the inner city. People literally became trapped. By the 80's people in the suburbs were trying to figure out containment plans. You had angry white man movies like "Escape from New York" (which is laughable now) and as crime peaked in the early 90's we got "Falling Down."
Robert Moses was a flaming racist and was ahead of the curve. He's the reason that the Long Island Parkway bridges are too low for buses. He didn't want black people getting out there. I'm 100% serious. If you wanted to get to Robert Moses State Park on a bus your trip would take twice as long and the buses had to park at the western end of the beach. He also did his best to keep a lot of city pools segregated. He pretty much destroyed the South Bronx. The only reason my grandparents met is because my grandmother (who is irish) had to move from apartment to apartment to escape Moses' bulldozers making way for the Major Deegan Expwy.
My basic point . . . sure a bunch of rich, mostly white men run the country. It doesn't mean that the rest of us get a seat at the table. Long before they considered the benefits of african slavery they were using white people from other countries.
I am not saying that there is some cabal of rich white powerful people who are bent upon maintaining white supremacy. You can split hairs to this extent though: There is a cabal of rich people who are bent upon maintaining RICH supremacy, and that cabal, at least in America, is 99.9 percent white. And what I was speaking about in my earlier post is the systematic way in which access to wealth was specifically kept (and is denied even now) from black people; inadequate education, being barred from trade unions, mortgage and geographical redlining, and other methods, both subtle and nonsubtle. In terms of wealth, blacks are way behind whites. And a rich black person still is considered less of a human being than a poor white one.
I agree with the gist of your post but the part i highlighted really irks me. I'm a white guy who lives, by choice, in a neighborhood where I'm the clear minority. In fact, with the exception of two young couples that rent in a building across the street, my wife and I are the only white homeowners on the block. I say this because I hear that a lot - this idea that white people "look out for each other." Besides the fact that it would get a chuckle from most white people it's flawed for a couple of reasons.
I'm not trying to say that there aren't a lot of white people who just don't like black people because they're black. There most certainly are. But by and large, those people aren't in a position to do anything about their racist sentiments.
And that's my point. Half of all people living in poverty are white. I know blacks are at a much higher percentage but really, if there was some white conspiracy to make ourselves rich at the expense of black people do you think we'd let 18 million of "our people" live in poverty? No one in this country, especially white people, really acknowledge class - except when they pause to talk about "the white trash" or belittle their neighbors or someone at the mall for having "no class." Whether they talk about it in academic terms or not americans are incredibly class conscious, they just don't think it applies to people of a different race. And my black and asian neighbors do it to each other and to me. Everyone here thinks we have a lot of money because we're white. In reality, even though our incomes are probably slightly higher, the net worth of most of our neighbors far exceeds our own.
The wealthiest 5% of americans own 60% of the country's wealth. The bottom 80% own 14% of the wealth. Now, sure that top 5% is over represented by whites (and asians.) But to say that most rich people are white therefore most white people are rich is not cogent. The rich look out for themselves first and for their clique next.
Now, there is a history in this country of using immigrants in this country to break unions and suppress wages. You can throw black folks in there with immigrant groups. Prior to WWI you wouldn't have found many blacks in northern cities. Sharecroppers were given train tickets to northern factories to replace all of the white workers off to war. When the whites returned they were expected to step down but it wasn't really a lasting problem because the roaring 20s solved most urban unemployment problems. Enter WWII, a much larger war effort, and now busing to northern factories. When the war was over most of the men sent for their families if they hadn't already been joined by them. The black population exploded. Enter white servicemen returning and another boom period for the american economy. Then 20 years later the factories start closing down and moving to the south, to mexico, to asia.
Black families in northern cities, rural peasantry for all intents and purposes, have one-generation to adopt to family life in an industrialized, urban environment while deindustrialization is just starting to set in. Now add to that FHA lending rules that wouldn't loan to whites or blacks for properties in an integrated neighborhood. Want a home-equity loan? Here are the most unfavorable terms possible. Want a house in the suburbs? Here's a check. Just stick with your own kind . . . and btw, those rules were in effect until 1972.
So while jobs are disappearing and urban whites are following the new economy to the suburbs home values are stagnant or falling in the city. As the census tracks the hollowing out of the cities, public policy that already favored the suburbs at the expense of the city get even more drastic. Money for schools and basic municipal services shrivel up.
You can throw both subtle and overt racism in to the mix and it's not a pretty picture for the formerly working-class blacks in the inner city. People literally became trapped. By the 80's people in the suburbs were trying to figure out containment plans. You had angry white man movies like "Escape from New York" (which is laughable now) and as crime peaked in the early 90's we got "Falling Down."
Robert Moses was a flaming racist and was ahead of the curve. He's the reason that the Long Island Parkway bridges are too low for buses. He didn't want black people getting out there. I'm 100% serious. If you wanted to get to Robert Moses State Park on a bus your trip would take twice as long and the buses had to park at the western end of the beach. He also did his best to keep a lot of city pools segregated. He pretty much destroyed the South Bronx. The only reason my grandparents met is because my grandmother (who is irish) had to move from apartment to apartment to escape Moses' bulldozers making way for the Major Deegan Expwy.
My basic point . . . sure a bunch of rich, mostly white men run the country. It doesn't mean that the rest of us get a seat at the table. Long before they considered the benefits of african slavery they were using white people from other countries.
To a large extent you’re right but it is not just about the filthy rich… it about the possibility of becoming middle class, living in a nice neighborhood, having quality education (all the things Sunil's Dad outlined). Its about being able to acquire the tools necessary to be successful in this country which are not as assessable to minorities as they are to others...so its not only about not being able to be in the top 5% its about the barriers that keep a large number of minorities from becoming part of the upper and lower middle class as well if that makes sense...
To a large extent you’re right but it is not just about the filthy rich… it about the possibility of becoming middle class, living in a nice neighborhood, having quality education (all the things Sunil's Dad outlined). Its about being able to acquire the tools necessary to be successful in this country which are not as assessable to minorities as they are to others...so its not only about not being able to be in the top 5% its about the barriers that keep a large number of minorities from becoming part of the upper and lower middle class as well if that makes sense...
I'm reading these posts and I disagree(to a certain extent). I,we, grew up in a tenement in Jersey City **** poor. My father left for work at 5 in the morning and sometimes if not most times didn't get home until 10 at night. My mother guarded prisoners in the dirty filthy county jail. They broke there arse and we weren't given anything or expected anything. We had neighbors from all backgrounds. MOST of the ones that worked hard were rewarded with the small perks of life. Maybe a used car and maybe you could get out of the tenement and finally move uptown to a two family like on the Jeffersons. This victim mentality day after day is sickening. NO ONE gave me anything because I AM WHITE. My brother married a black woman and I have nieces and nephews that are mixed. We go to family gatherings and some of the blacks call each other lazy. And yes we have many lazy whites and more whites on welfare due to the fact of the population numbers. If anything that I see is the govt. jobs have quotas for certain ethnic groups. Post Office, police, fire and so on. I'm in my 50's and I have worked since I was about 9 years old. Corner store,delivering papers, mopping floors,delivering pizza, loading trucks and so on. I have worked 2 jobs most of my adult life and my wife works full time and we had 4 kids and are still struggling. The opportunities are there if you strive and strive harder. If you didn't get it yet get up at 4 in the morning the next day and strive even harder. Sorry if I OFFENDED anyone I was just giving another view. Jersey Man
Last edited by JERSEY MAN; 08-19-2008 at 03:52 PM..
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But much as that is true, they'd probably freak out a little more if their child married a black person than a white person from a lesser "class."
