U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 08-20-2008, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
23,932 posts, read 20,217,273 times
Reputation: 11210

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
As a synonym for "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness". In other words, the Constitution allowed merely for the opportunity to pursue happiness, or promote, promulgate, or encourage the the pursuit of happiness, through various actions i.e. providing goods, services, etc, at a profit. Profit is not ensured, however, under the system provided to us by the founding fathers, the opportunity indeed exists. In contrast, there are no guarantees to your prosperity, i.e. the right to welfare, the right to free health care, housing, food, etc.
Us "liberals" are not saying anyone should get free health care, housing, food or anything like that. We are not asking for guaranteed prosperity, just some assurance of a baseline standard of living that is attainable through work. I believe that working people should not be living in squalor, or having problems eating or getting health care because they are not able to afford it. As well, such a guarantee of access to a reasonable standard of care ultimately benefits everyone ultimately if affordable, reasonably efficient health care is available to everyone; one of the major reasons it is so expensive now is that people have to postpone or not get health care at all until their illnesses are too severe to ignore, after which they go to the emergency room, which is not set up for such patients, and the hospital is ultimately uncompensated for the prohibitive expense, which is later passed on to everyone else.

 
Old 08-20-2008, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Historic Downtown Jersey City
2,707 posts, read 4,945,406 times
Reputation: 1129
Thomas Jefferson said "I've noticed that the harder I work, the better luck I have". JERSEY MAN I know you appreciate that quote.

I have had at least one job at all times since I was 12 years old delivering newspapers. At 16 I upgraded to 2 simultaneous jobs and I never looked back. I always shook my head and laughed when friends told me that they didn't have jobs. I thought "how can you not work??"

To SUNIL's DAD: my ancestors on my mother's side were Italian immigrants. When Italians were coming into Ellis Island en masse in 1920's, they WERE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE WHITE PEOPLE. They faced MANY cultural hardships, discrimination, etc. Forget how today Italians are considered white...back then they were NOT. They were perceived as minorities. And this was before "PC"...so many racial slurs were tossed...probably just as many as were tossed at blacks.

How about the Irish in the 1880's ?? When they were coming to Ellis Island en masse, all the storefronts had little signs in the windows that said NINA. That stood for "no Irish need apply". Haha. Can you believe it? Is that discrimination? This is not all about skin color here... In fact, compared to the "NINA" signs in New York in the 1880's...blacks and other minorities have it EASY. Can you imagine a sign in a storefront window that said "NMNA"...No Mexicans Need Apply? Oh, the outrage!

Well guess what...the Irish overcame that, and the Italians did as well. But there are still stereotypes...Irish are drunks and Italians are mostly mobsters, right? I am 50% Irish and 50% Italian and proud of my background....and guess what? I don't get offended at those stereotypes, at least not too much. "Political correctiveness" is BS...we need to all lighten up and not take ourselves so seriously.
 
Old 08-20-2008, 04:34 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
2,838 posts, read 4,663,789 times
Reputation: 2068
Good God is this ever sad...

I wonder though-what is the solution? Seriously folks, what do we do about "the handouts?" By "the handouts" I mean every government program mentioned in this thread-Head Start, Affirmative Action, TANF, WIC, unemployment, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, etc... It's great to talk about the good old days when people believed in the dignity of work and so on and so forth, but what about solutions? What is the cure all? Is there one? What is the cause? Now many folks in this thread have stated over and over again "I've worked hard, I've struggled, I've sacrificed," but what does that mean for those who receive "the handouts?" Why don't they work hard? Why don't they sacrifice? Why don't they struggle (or do they)? Is it a cultural/racial thing? Is it a societal problem? Why is it the way it is? Why won't anyone address why it is the way it is?

I've said this before on this forum and I'll say it again. We as a society have lost the idea that work is dignifying. Look at the disdainful way a "blue collar" town is talked about on this forum. God forbid anyone lives among the working class these days. Some folks will stand up and tell other folks to work hard, struggle, and toil, but that doesn't mean they want to be dining next to them at the country club. One of the things I love about my town is that it has a pretty good mix of blue collar, white collar, and in-between folks. Personally I wear a suit to work everyday, but I'm well aware that I was able to go to college via the fruits of a strong back and dirty hands. Hard work has become something that people like to talk about, but no one wants to associate with it. The guys down at the union hall are not seen as "honorable hard workers"-they're seen as uncouth individuals with strong backs and weak minds. Maybe if society starts actually VALUING work rather than just sitting around TALKING about it people will start DOING it. Until then don't expect to see much bootstrap pulling.

You get a real education going from blue collar roots to a white collar world. It allows you to see just how little some people value other people. I've heard the condescending remarks my coworkers make about things like NASCAR, hunting and fishing, pickup trucks, etc...all it takes is a commercial on the television near the lunch table to get someone going. I see the way my boss looks dismissively at the repair guys who come to fix this that or the other thing that's broken in the office. When I'm for a beer with one of my buddies from home, some of whom own their own businesses and are quite successful, we have a good laugh about it, but really, it's indicative of a serious problem. How can the U.S. ever recapture its greatness if we can't be proud of what made us (making steel, cars, and whathaveyou) great?

Last edited by Badfish740; 08-20-2008 at 04:43 PM..
 
Old 08-20-2008, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
23,932 posts, read 20,217,273 times
Reputation: 11210
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyc_37 View Post
To SUNIL's DAD: my ancestors on my mother's side were Italian immigrants. When Italians were coming into Ellis Island en masse in 1920's, they WERE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE WHITE PEOPLE. They faced MANY cultural hardships, discrimination, etc. Forget how today Italians are considered white...back then they were NOT. They were perceived as minorities. And this was before "PC"...so many racial slurs were tossed...probably just as many as were tossed at blacks.

How about the Irish in the 1880's ?? When they were coming to Ellis Island en masse, all the storefronts had little signs in the windows that said NINA. That stood for "no Irish need apply". Haha. Can you believe it? Is that discrimination? This is not all about skin color here... In fact, compared to the "NINA" signs in New York in the 1880's...blacks and other minorities have it EASY. Can you imagine a sign in a storefront window that said "NMNA"...No Mexicans Need Apply? Oh, the outrage!

Well guess what...the Irish overcame that, and the Italians did as well. But there are still stereotypes...Irish are drunks and Italians are mostly mobsters, right? I am 50% Irish and 50% Italian and proud of my background....and guess what? I don't get offended at those stereotypes, at least not too much. "Political correctiveness" is BS...we need to all lighten up and not take ourselves so seriously.
Tommyc, I have to ask a serious question. Have you ever heard of slavery and Reconstruction, or the Ku Klux Klan? You are comparing the life of Irish and Italians in the 1880s and 1920s to African Americans now? In many ways, you are making my point for me. Since Irish and Italians were "nonwhite" back then, I guess there were many incidences where they were lynched indiscriminately, while white folks looked around nonchalantly and even had parties. I guess they were not allowed to vote, nor to own land. I guess they were living in segregated conditions, even when they tried to serve their country in the military. I could go on, literally, for days about the injustices of the past, injustices that continue to persist, in some ways, even in 2008. For you to equate the "discrimination lite" that Irish and Italians "got over" to the barbaric experiences and attempted genocide that black people went through is disingenuous and naive at best, idiotic at worst. Are you effing kidding me? This is ALL about skin color, and in America it has always been that way. Yeah, racial slurs are bad. Lynchings and mutilations are worse. I forgot. We had/have it EASY........................You need to really take a look at American history before throwing that bs at me.
 
Old 08-21-2008, 02:36 AM
 
Location: South Philly
1,943 posts, read 4,346,323 times
Reputation: 588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740 View Post
I've said this before on this forum and I'll say it again. We as a society have lost the idea that work is dignifying. Look at the disdainful way a "blue collar" town is talked about on this forum. God forbid anyone lives among the working class these days. Some folks will stand up and tell other folks to work hard, struggle, and toil, but that doesn't mean they want to be dining next to them at the country club. One of the things I love about my town is that it has a pretty good mix of blue collar, white collar, and in-between folks. Personally I wear a suit to work everyday, but I'm well aware that I was able to go to college via the fruits of a strong back and dirty hands. Hard work has become something that people like to talk about, but no one wants to associate with it. The guys down at the union hall are not seen as "honorable hard workers"-they're seen as uncouth individuals with strong backs and weak minds. Maybe if society starts actually VALUING work rather than just sitting around TALKING about it people will start DOING it. Until then don't expect to see much bootstrap pulling.

You get a real education going from blue collar roots to a white collar world. It allows you to see just how little some people value other people. I've heard the condescending remarks my coworkers make about things like NASCAR, hunting and fishing, pickup trucks, etc...all it takes is a commercial on the television near the lunch table to get someone going. I see the way my boss looks dismissively at the repair guys who come to fix this that or the other thing that's broken in the office. When I'm for a beer with one of my buddies from home, some of whom own their own businesses and are quite successful, we have a good laugh about it, but really, it's indicative of a serious problem. How can the U.S. ever recapture its greatness if we can't be proud of what made us (making steel, cars, and whathaveyou) great?
This is what I was trying to get at in my other long-winded post. About classism. Far more than geography you'll find the socio-cultural boundaries in this country along class lines.

The problem, i think, is that outside of the building trades and warehousing/transportation that blue collar jobs in this country have been dwindling since the 60's and aren't coming back. $7 a gallon gas might bring some manufacturing jobs back but expensive gas will hurt a lot more than it will help (btw - most signs are pointing toward major gas/energy crisis in 5 years.) Our economy was retooled as one that focused on finance, services and technology and as a country we needed to retool and retrain. We retooled but left the retraining up to those people with bootstraps. Meanwhile half the country was still running around barefoot.

Europe did the same thing but, for the most part, a university education is all but free. In Australia they pay you to go to college. And the schools have programs that are geared towards useful job skills and don't just crank out hundreds of thousands of BA/BS degrees every year. I spent 4 years on active duty, 3 years in the national guard (for the GI Bill) and worked my way through school so I wouldn't have to borrow too much money. 6 years later I still have what amounts to a Toyota Camry worth of student loans (I don't have a car at all) and all for a BA in my current field that is quickly becoming useless. I am expected to spend another $40k on a Master's if I expect to stay competitive.

It's like you're just supposed to borrow money so you can have the privilege of paying it back.
 
Old 08-21-2008, 06:55 AM
 
148 posts, read 450,464 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by solibs View Post
This is what I was trying to get at in my other long-winded post. About classism. Far more than geography you'll find the socio-cultural boundaries in this country along class lines.

The problem, i think, is that outside of the building trades and warehousing/transportation that blue collar jobs in this country have been dwindling since the 60's and aren't coming back. $7 a gallon gas might bring some manufacturing jobs back but expensive gas will hurt a lot more than it will help (btw - most signs are pointing toward major gas/energy crisis in 5 years.) Our economy was retooled as one that focused on finance, services and technology and as a country we needed to retool and retrain. We retooled but left the retraining up to those people with bootstraps. Meanwhile half the country was still running around barefoot.

Europe did the same thing but, for the most part, a university education is all but free. In Australia they pay you to go to college. And the schools have programs that are geared towards useful job skills and don't just crank out hundreds of thousands of BA/BS degrees every year. I spent 4 years on active duty, 3 years in the national guard (for the GI Bill) and worked my way through school so I wouldn't have to borrow too much money. 6 years later I still have what amounts to a Toyota Camry worth of student loans (I don't have a car at all) and all for a BA in my current field that is quickly becoming useless. I am expected to spend another $40k on a Master's if I expect to stay competitive.

It's like you're just supposed to borrow money so you can have the privilege of paying it back.
It seems like you and badfish are talking about two different things...his post suggests that we look down on (do not value those)/pass judgment on the people that perform blue collar jobs which i believe is not really the larger issue at hand (i mean honestly it probably does not bother most repairmens' souls when someone gives grimaces at them while on the job they're probably just happy to have a job...that has been my experience)...Whereas your post is deals with the lack of blue collar job which i believe holds more validity and weight to the argument and to a large degree i agree....I dont think that anyone was making the claim that race is the sole reason its hard to get ahead, i think there are many factors and race is one and i cant seems to understand why some people take the stance like race does not matter AT ALL in this age when it still does...It was bought up that it hard for physically unattractive people as well (and most people in HR will to tell to some degree that is true, many overweight people will have a hard time finding jobs in certain fields)
 
Old 08-21-2008, 08:16 AM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
2,838 posts, read 4,663,789 times
Reputation: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
For you to equate the "discrimination lite" that Irish and Italians "got over" to the barbaric experiences and attempted genocide that black people went through is disingenuous and naive at best, idiotic at worst.
I have to agree. I'm Irish, proud of it, and well versed in Irish/Irish-American history. Considering that the first blacks were brought here in chains nearly 400 years ago, they remained enslaved for 245 years, and then remained second class citizens for 100 years after that, it's a stretch to compare it with "No Irish Need Apply." My Great Great Great Grandfather Kennedy walked off of a boat in New York sometime in the late 1850s. I'm sure he received a welcome of racial slurs and much worse. One only needs to watch "Gangs of New York" to get a relatively accurate picture of what the mostly Catholic immigrants faced in the middle 1800s. However, just 20 years later he owned a farm just outside of Whitehouse Station, New Jersey. I seriously doubt many blacks owned farms even in New Jersey in the 1870s.

My Great Great Grandfather was a 1st generation American with no accent, and to anyone he met on the street he was just another white farmer. Sure, went into a Catholic church on Sundays when everyone else was heading to the Baptist, Methodist, and Episcopalian services, but it's not as if the Klan was all that active in New Jersey against Catholics like they were in the South. Even there it wasn't THAT bad. You can't find very many examples of white on white lynchings-although I do believe there is a record of a Jewish man being lynched in Georgia in the 1920s. I don't care where your ancestors came from in Europe, it took just one generation to blend in and look like everyone else. All that being said I still don't think race is the biggest problem-it's the blatant and rampant disgust that this country holds for the working man while simultaneously preaching the gospel of hard work.
 
Old 08-21-2008, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
23,932 posts, read 20,217,273 times
Reputation: 11210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740 View Post
I have to agree. I'm Irish, proud of it, and well versed in Irish/Irish-American history. Considering that the first blacks were brought here in chains nearly 400 years ago, they remained enslaved for 245 years, and then remained second class citizens for 100 years after that, it's a stretch to compare it with "No Irish Need Apply." My Great Great Great Grandfather Kennedy walked off of a boat in New York sometime in the late 1850s. I'm sure he received a welcome of racial slurs and much worse. One only needs to watch "Gangs of New York" to get a relatively accurate picture of what the mostly Catholic immigrants faced in the middle 1800s. However, just 20 years later he owned a farm just outside of Whitehouse Station, New Jersey. I seriously doubt many blacks owned farms even in New Jersey in the 1870s.

My Great Great Grandfather was a 1st generation American with no accent, and to anyone he met on the street he was just another white farmer. Sure, went into a Catholic church on Sundays when everyone else was heading to the Baptist, Methodist, and Episcopalian services, but it's not as if the Klan was all that active in New Jersey against Catholics like they were in the South. Even there it wasn't THAT bad. You can't find very many examples of white on white lynchings-although I do believe there is a record of a Jewish man being lynched in Georgia in the 1920s. I don't care where your ancestors came from in Europe, it took just one generation to blend in and look like everyone else. All that being said I still don't think race is the biggest problem-it's the blatant and rampant disgust that this country holds for the working man while simultaneously preaching the gospel of hard work.
Badfish, I really didn't want to rip into tommy like that, but his comments were just idiotic. I mean, how many Irish/Italian men were ever lynched for even allegedly just looking at a white woman? BTW, yes, that Jewish man in question was Leo Frank of Georgia. My point, of course, was that literally thousands of African American males went through this ethnic cleansing/genocide/terrorism, and yes, it was all three. I think you get my drift here........Yes, the disgust for the working man (or woman) is another problem we have. Being of color, though, I still see racism as a problem that has, while diminished, continues to persist in this state and nation.
 
Old 08-21-2008, 08:31 AM
 
646 posts, read 1,817,574 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07860 View Post
too late to lock the gates or the Rio Grande.
HELL NO!!!I'm not against immigration ,I'm against Illegal Immigration!






I've said this before ,"Calling an illegal immigrint an undocumented worker is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed Pharmacist"!

Last edited by Giantone; 08-21-2008 at 08:54 AM..
 
Old 08-21-2008, 08:52 AM
 
646 posts, read 1,817,574 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by wileynj View Post
Too true JM! Same here... worked since I was 14 (girls had it better off )..and haven't stopped since. If a black man can make it all the way to the office of president... what's to stop others from just making a living!

Same here ,even when I was out of work I had 3 jobs.I was lucky and got into a Union and we still have to convince kids to work ,white ,black,latino all of them are lazy.
I do differ with you point about a Blackman and the office of President,
Obama is as much a white man as he is a black man and he better remember that or he won't win the election.There is one group out there that has not been polled and they are the ones that will decide this election! White men over the age of 40.


I'm not against Immigration,I'm against Illegal immigration.

I've said this before ,"Calling an illegal immigrint an undocumented worker is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed Pharmacist"!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 


Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top