So what the deal with the drinking age? (law, dinner)

[b75]

I don't feel that someone should hold all the LEGAL responsibilities of an adult in this country without also having full adult freedoms. You are either an adult or not - the double standard needs to go. If 18 -20 year olds are not considered adults then all adult responsibilities should be removed & they should continue to enjoy the liberties also extended to those who are of minor age. Right now there is a legal double standard at play.

[JerseyG]

Originally Posted by RalphKNS

MLDA 21 is a discriminatory policy against young adult men and women in the U.S. I have never driven under the influence or drank to anywhere near a dangerous level, nor will I ever, and I am under 21 years old. I am not allowed to buy alcohol. But a repeat DUI offender, someone who has repeatedly proven themself an irresponsible drinker? They can buy all the Everclear or Jack Daniels they want. What about pregnant women over 21? Their offspring are the youngest underage drinkers; and they have no say in the matter. The damage children with FAS suffer is irreparable and can ruin their lives. Yet pregnant women over 21 can, once again, consume all the alcohol they care for. And a recovering alcoholic who is over the MLDA can ignore the "We don't serve teens" sign at the bar as one beer turns into a dozen.

Infantalizing young adults is a useless display of ageism. At 19 I have long been a grown man. I am by no means a "kid", "child", whatever. I have a spouse and have held down more than one full-time job; I'll soon be attending college, and my driving skills and obeying of traffic laws are easily better than half the people I know who are far older than I am (granted, I drive a motorcycle instead of a car, but the principle is basically the same).

Also, there is no such thing as an 18, 19, or 20 year old "child". Simply because a man or woman is young does not make them a "child" any more than someone being 40 years old and not "acting their age" makes them a "child". And we need MUCH harsher penalties for DUI. Drunk driving is gambling with other human beings' lives and should be treated as such.

You are the norm. Neither was I at 18-19. No drinky no smokey.

I knew plenty of people my age (when I was a late teen) who drank, smoked had sex...I know you had to know that there were the same around you as well.

You may be one in a million, but it's the other 999,999 who screw up. You may be the most mature kid your age in the world, doesn't mean the rest of the kids your age have a clue. Statistics prove that. Those are the ones who need laws and penalties...I agree with you when it comes to the 40 year olds as well...but if you haven't "grown out" of your boozing days by the time you have a family and are approaching a mid-life crisis...you're just as smart as a dumb-18 year old who is drinking and driving or doing drugs or pumping out FAS babies...

It's all about parental control for a good part there...when the kids go off to college all you can hope is that your kid will have learned something and not try 21 shots in 21 minutes on his/her 21st birthday...or drink his/herself into alcohol poisoning for some "guy" or "girl" or punch out a window and slit a wrist or swallow two bottles of Motrin b/c some chick/dude did your kid wrong...the excuses for acting stupid are endless...the issues, IMHO, lie with the way kids are raised.

I don't have an answer, I wish I did. But it's not ageism. The older I get the younger college kids look and the dumber they seem to act. I have one tenant who is 22 and he thinks he's got me sold on this dog of his...who he swears is his girlfriends and he just "watches" every once in a while. I'm letting him get away with thinking I"m stupid. The guys who live above him already know that I didn't fall for any of "Andy's " BS and if the dog is an issue, to let me know. Summer was ok...a barking dog during school and study time...may not be so ok for the other apartment. Yet "Andy's" pretty sure I'm THAT stupid that I don't see the dog toys in the backyard, the chain in the ground, the digging under the fence...let alone the dog crap that the landscaper complains about EVERY week? Yep, dumb old me...have no clue it ain't his girlfriends dog. Joke's on him when I keep his full security for messing up the yard, the landscaper bills for cleaning the dog-crap off his mower, etc....

Adults, have they led somewhat of a "normal" life...have already tried/used all the excuses. The one benefit to getting older is you can spot a liar a mile away....you can smell the smoke BEFORE someone tries to blow it up your rear-end. I'm amazed that gen Y haven't come up with anything better than gen x did?

[SouthernFarmer]

I've taken a pretty strong stand on this issue before, and this is what it boils down to:

* If you're old enough, at 18, to be handed an automatic machine gun and be shipped off to a war zone (i.e. Iraq) to have your arms and legs blown off by IEDs...how are you not old enough to drink? That's a ridiculous double-standard...if we consider you responsible enough to take a rifle into another country and not kill innocent civillians, how is it that we think you're too irresponsible to handle a glass of wine? And are you really going to look a one-armed 19-y/o Marine coming back from the war, look him in the eye and tell him he can't have a beer?

* If, at 18, you're old enough to vote for the President of the USA -- the leader of the free world -- why aren't you old enough to drink? I consider not being bombed by Iran or North Korea to be a more important matter than who has a Bud after work...so if you can participate in the former decision, why not the latter?


This is what it boils down to: in this society, we have declared 18 to be the age of majority, the age where you're conferred your 1st-8th Amendment constitutional rights. It's the age where you can vote for the leader of the free world, fight for your country, sue and be sued in your own name, own land, hold any job you want, consent to medical care, BE A PARENT (requires a lot more responsibility than a beer, in my opinion), etc. etc. etc. -- so it seems like a very ridiculous and contradictory double-standard to say that you can't drink. And someone with a legal/constitutional/fairness bent could point out that it undermines the concept and right of adulthood and the age of majority. I also happen to believe -- regardless of whether I'd do it or think it's morally wrong -- that whatever a consenting adult does in the privacy of their own home, is their own business...and I have NO right or place interfering with it or attempting to control it. That's the attitude I take on same-sex partners, and pornography, and religions other than my Baptist Christianity, and lots of other things...and it's the attitude I take on drinking. I know that personally, if some person or activist group tried to reach their long fat arm onto my property and into my house and tell me what I can and can't do with my life in the privacy of my own home, I'd have my hackles up REAL fast and I'd be very ardent and fiery and outspoken in my opposition and resistance to that. And since I'm not willing to lower myself to the level of being a hipocrite, I need to apply the same standard to others that I'd want applied to me.

Like EVERYONE, I agree that drunk driving is bad, and that drunk driving accidents and fatalities are bad. I would point out that the majority of alcoholics who are chronically racking up DUIs, are middle-aged folks -- not teens. The fat balding 45-year-old guy who comes home from his cubicle job in the accounting department of Acme Insurance, to his on-the-brink-of-divorce marriage and drowns his sorrows in a bottle of Jack Daniels six days a week...I'm more worried about him hitting me with his Ford Tempo, than I am about a 20-year-old. When's the last time someone said that drunk-driving fatalities were higher in college towns than elsewhere? I've never heard that said, which I believe stands as testiment to the notion that we don't have a disproportionate amount of sub-21 drunk drivers to over-21 drunk drivers.

And like many people, I believe that a big part of the problem is the degree to which we sensationalize alcohol in this country. Canada's drinking age is 18, and in most of Europe it's 16 or even lower. I don't normally use Europe as an example of intelligent decision-making, but this is a special case because none of those countries comes even CLOSE to our number of drunk driving fatalities (and, for that matter, alcoholism). We are the only modern western 1st-world industrialized nation with an over-18 drinking age, and that's the sort of thing which I believe raises a flag that perhaps our position on the issue warrants some review.

Perhaps if drinking wasn't made out to be such a mature, sexy, adult thing -- then perhaps the people craving a feeling of becoming mature and sexy and adult and independent (15-20 y/o) wouldn't feel such a need for it. It's the same thing as with cigarettes. When your ads show the product being used by cool suave independent young adult (early/mid 20s) guys who are constantly getting laid by sexy broads -- well, everyone knows what that does to the male teenage mind...and find me one TV ad for alcohol which doesn't depict exactly that.

I also agree that this simultaneous glorification and restriction of alcohol leads to things like underground frat parties with very dangerous (possibly lethal) binge-drinking.

I am frustrated, however, with the argument that "well, we can't control it, so we might as well give up" -- if we say that about under-21 drinking, why not about drugs or sex or street gangs or terrorism or anything else? We could say "no matter what, teenagers will be sexually active" - which may be true to some extent, but does that mean we have our schoolteachers handing out condoms to 12-year-olds? No! I believe murder is wrong, which is why I stand against abortion -- does the fact that some women would give themselves coat-hanger abortions mean that overturning Roe v. Wade and banning abortion is a bad idea? HECK NO! I'm not going to stand before God and try to explain why I suborned millions of infanticides just because I thought that perhaps some women would give themselves dangerous coat-hanger abortions if I didn't. The fact that a law or a position is hard to enforce, doesn't mean we give up -- "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". Don't get me wrong -- I believe the 21-year age limit is wrong -- but right or wrong, it's still the law at the moment...and until it stops being the law, it should be enforced (just like any other law). If I had an 18-20 y/o kid right now and I caught them drinking, I'd take them out to the woodshed and horse-whip them, and then take them down to the police station. If it wasn't the law, I wouldn't. We should repeal the law, but for the right reason(s) -- and again, until it's repealed, it must still be enforced by police and parents and school administrators.

[doc1]

As long as we're willing to accept the likely increase in alcohol related social problems such as vehicular deaths, relationship violence, health risks to unborn children, the increase of those younger than 18 having easier access to alcohol and so on, I say go for it.

With more personal rights comes more personal accountability.

[SouthernFarmer]

Originally Posted by doc1

As long as we're willing to accept the likely increase in alcohol related social problems such as vehicular deaths, relationship violence, health risks to unborn children, the increase of those younger than 18 having easier access to alcohol and so on, I say go for it.

With more personal rights comes more personal accountability.

What a bullcrap-laden, bass-ackwards argument!


(A) The fact that alcohol is legally restricted to age 21, doesn't mean it's practically restricted to age 21...in reality, it's reliably available to all high school and under-21 college students anywhere in the nation. So the only sub-21 people NOT currently drinking are the ones who are good moral law-abiding citizens...people who play by the rules and respect the law. These are NOT the people who are going to be getting drunk and getting behind the wheel. The people who are causing the DUIs -- the people who have bad morals and bad judgment and think the rules don't apply to them -- will already drink because they don't give a crap about the age-21 law. Don't try to tell me that someone who doesn't care about the 0.08 BAC law and the value of innocent lives of women and children on the road, cares about the age-21 law.

(B) "Relationship violence" doesn't correlate in ANY way with the legal drinking age; show me one peer-reviewed study that says that. Again -- the immoral young men who would raise a hand to a lady, they're not sitting around right now saying "even though I could get my hands on alcohol, I'm 18-20 years old so it's not legal, and I'm a good moral law-abiding citizen, so I abstain."

(C) The overwhelmingly vast majority of pregnant women in this country are age 21 or over, not under 21. And again, anyone irresponsible enough to drink while pregnant, isn't going to be the same person respecting an age limit law.

(D) Unless we made the drinking age 14, there is no way it could possibly GET any easier for the under-18 in our country to get alcohol. Regardless of whether the age is 18 or 21, there will be just as many homeless people willing to "buy for you" for $5, just as many liberal parents who are still trying to be defiant to the US government, just as many older brothers/sisters/cousins willing to buy for younger siblings, just as many under-25 people willing to buy for underage people (especially if there's a profit in it for them, no matter how small), just as many East Indian convenience store owners who won't check ID and lose the sale, just as many bartenders who know that the underage one blends in just fine with the 200 other legal-age customers, just as many youth nightclubs where the young people "in charge" don't give a crap, just as many parents with alcohol in the house that the kid(s) can get into, et cetera.



You still haven't provided any intelligent rebuttal to my arguments in my previous post, particularly the first bullet point about military service...and until you manage to tear down those arguments (which I don't believe can be done), I've won the debate.

[onegreatnurse]

Originally Posted by NJ987654

I'm torn.... I agree with this...


But I worry that 18 year olds will buy booze for 16 and 15 years olds. High school seniors are 18.... and in some states, 16 year olds drive. I think with peer pressure, 18 year old will buy for 16 years olds.

I'd like to see the stats on the change dui fatalities when they changed it from 18 to 21. Did it actually help?

I agree with the above, but as far as dui fatalities, I don't know if changing the drinking age can be credited with reducing alcohol related fatalities, if indeed this is even the case. IF fatalities are down, it might be due to stricter enforcement of all the DUI laws that have gone into effect. However, even dui laws don't have as much of an effect as you think. Just as a previous poster stated, follow the money...colleges don't want to be sued, that's it, period, end of story...it's not necessarily about caring whether or not someone dies, sorry to say. DUI's are the same way, they are not about prevention or curing alcoholics in any way, there is a lot of $$$$$$$$ involved in all of the fines. The state has a whole team of lawyers dedicated just to collection of DUI fines. Of course, as with everything else in this world and our entire justice system (HOLLA OJ SIMPSON-YKWITA), if you have money a DUI will have ABSOLUTELY no real detrimental effect on you, only poor people suffer. I know, I have a friend who was hired by a guy with $$$ to be his driver, and when he got his license back and my friend's gig ended, he had NO problem whatsoever shelling out the money for the fines. In fact I heard a "rumor" (and I really do believe it, I think it's TOTALLY true).... that a certain CEO of a certain very big hospital here in Bergen County that is very well known had a drunk driving accident, and an entire wing was shut down to care for him and only the "big wigs" were allowed to be his nurses, and it was kept very hush-hush, and he has had a driver ever since. Nice, huh?

[fnord]

Originally Posted by Calico696

If you are old enough to fight for your country, get married, vote for elected officials, apply for a loan, work a full time job etc. you should be able to buy alcohol. Just my two cents.

Exactly. If a society or government is setting an age to do "adult" things, it should be across the board.

At age 18 I had a full time job, paid taxes, drove a car, had the option to vote politically, and were there a military draft in effect - could have been picked to go engage in battle. Yet, I was not allowed to stop at the store after work and pick up a bottle of wine to go with my spaghetti dinner because I'm obviously too young and irresponsible. And if I tried to, I would be arrested and put in jail.

Just more idiocracy and why the US is falling behind in human advancement.

[fnord]

Oh, and regarding the whole drunk driving comments - stupid is as stupid does, and age has very little to do with it.

I live in New Mexico, the showcase state of DUI arrests. Based on what I read in the local papers, the vast majority of nasty drunk-driving crashes involve middle aged men in their 40s & 50s who reportedly have already had numerous DUI arrests.

[doc1]

Originally Posted by SouthernFarmer

What a bullcrap-laden, bass-ackwards argument!


(A) The fact that alcohol is legally restricted to age 21, doesn't mean it's practically restricted to age 21...in reality, it's reliably available to all high school and under-21 college students anywhere in the nation. So the only sub-21 people NOT currently drinking are the ones who are good moral law-abiding citizens...people who play by the rules and respect the law. These are NOT the people who are going to be getting drunk and getting behind the wheel. The people who are causing the DUIs -- the people who have bad morals and bad judgment and think the rules don't apply to them -- will already drink because they don't give a crap about the age-21 law. Don't try to tell me that someone who doesn't care about the 0.08 BAC law and the value of innocent lives of women and children on the road, cares about the age-21 law.

(B) "Relationship violence" doesn't correlate in ANY way with the legal drinking age; show me one peer-reviewed study that says that. Again -- the immoral young men who would raise a hand to a lady, they're not sitting around right now saying "even though I could get my hands on alcohol, I'm 18-20 years old so it's not legal, and I'm a good moral law-abiding citizen, so I abstain."

(C) The overwhelmingly vast majority of pregnant women in this country are age 21 or over, not under 21. And again, anyone irresponsible enough to drink while pregnant, isn't going to be the same person respecting an age limit law.

(D) Unless we made the drinking age 14, there is no way it could possibly GET any easier for the under-18 in our country to get alcohol. Regardless of whether the age is 18 or 21, there will be just as many homeless people willing to "buy for you" for $5, just as many liberal parents who are still trying to be defiant to the US government, just as many older brothers/sisters/cousins willing to buy for younger siblings, just as many under-25 people willing to buy for underage people (especially if there's a profit in it for them, no matter how small), just as many East Indian convenience store owners who won't check ID and lose the sale, just as many bartenders who know that the underage one blends in just fine with the 200 other legal-age customers, just as many youth nightclubs where the young people "in charge" don't give a crap, just as many parents with alcohol in the house that the kid(s) can get into, et cetera.



You still haven't provided any intelligent rebuttal to my arguments in my previous post, particularly the first bullet point about military service...and until you manage to tear down those arguments (which I don't believe can be done), I've won the debate.

There is no way possible that I can match your passion on this subject. Okay, you win.

[GirlFromJersey]

I have to say, as a 21 year old, I am sick of being blamed for others' mistakes. I started driving when the GDL program was just introduced and had to go through all these extra steps because another group of teenagers (I wouldn't exactly call them another generation) were irresponsible. I had to spend $150 on driving lessons just to be able to get my permit and drive around with my mom in the car. I couldn't go out for a 9 pm movie and dinner on a summer night because I might be driving past 11:59 pm by the time I got home. I don't mind being responsible, I'm that way naturally, what I do mind is being told that I will be considered irresponsible until I prove myself not to be because somebody else messed up.

Meanwhile, those kids that were 16-18 when I was 13-15 have got their license, they're off in college now, drinking underage and making it harder for me yet again. I now live in a 2 bedroom apartment with three other girls. We're all 21 or over and we aren't allowed any alcohol in the apartment. Two or three years ago, though? Absolutely no problem as long as everyone in the apt. was 21+.