who are the 70k leaving nj every year?? (Princeton, Chester: rent, car insurance)

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by mike0421

According to the article, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Florida.

WOW-and here I thought my commute was bad!

Originally Posted by mike0421

The article and research was conducted by Seneca and Hughes of Rutgers University. I guess the two professors used the Census Bureau statistics to fortify their article.

Isn't Rutgers (aka the Glorious People's Ministry of Re-education) a liberal cesspool of communist lies like all institutions of higher learning save for Bob Jones and Regent?

My point was that so long as there are high paying jobs (and even higher costs of living) in both cities, people will come here. True, plenty will leave, but plenty will fill in the spaces left behind.

[banger]

My house is on the market right now. I'm trying to get out, but the market is killing me.

Heading for F.A. !!!!

[solibs]

I live in PA now and am not at all happy with it. I like my neighborhood, I like living in the city, if I could find something comparable in my price range in NJ I would move back in a second. But you get what you pay for. I don't pay much. I don't get much. I've also lived in VA, NC, SC and GA. There are quite a few places I would consider moving in this country but NC and FL don't make the cut. The crime in both places is really astounding and the schools are generally poor by NJ standards.

In a crowded state that's also the wealthiest one in the union no one should be surprised by these statistics. Household size has been shrinking everywhere. If you have 3.3 million households and your average household size goes from 2.6 people per household to 2.5 people per household then you've lost (i'm doing the math in my head) about 300,000 people.

While household size has been shrinking people have also been taking up more square feet of living space per person. People with a lot of money take up a lot more space per person.

So we have a state that's as densely populated as the most dense in Europe (Netherlands, Belgium) that's full of people with money in an era of shrinking household size and growing household footprint. We also live in a state that's nearly built out and people in the suburbs (like Boston or DC or San Francisco or LA) vehemently oppose almost any project that isn't detached, single-family, 4000 s/f+ McMansions on a 1/2 acre or more. Want to build townhouses and condos by the Hamilton train station? Fuggedaboudit! Wanna go 10 stories in Red Bank? No way Jose!

So every year demand far exceeds supply and prices continue to dramatically outpace inflation.

If you bought a house in Red Bank or Asbury back in 1990 for $150k and now it's worth $750k you'd have to start counting the reasons not to move. Why wouldn't you take the profit, move to Lehigh County (or down to Raleigh), pay cash for a gorgeous house for $250k and retire early?

[GiantRutgersfan]

what exactly is the problem with state workers? Most of them are hard workers and do a good job (not talking about office people, but people who do real work)

[MoorestownResident]

There are just too many of them. NJ could cut half of its payroll and nobody would notice a difference.

[sam23]

Originally Posted by MoorestownResident

There are just too many of them. NJ could cut half of its payroll and nobody would notice a difference.

I agree 100 percent, but a large number of people that work for the state have no skills or college education to work elsewhere, the government basically bails them out.

Maybe if they had a skill in the trade field such as, a painter, electrician, plumber, landscaper, maybe they would find better jobs. A college education is not necessary for all fields.

[solibs]

I went to school for/work in the field of City Planning. I've worked at jobs for private firms and for state and municipal governments. When you're dealing with other municipalities you can always immediately tell which town is skimping on payroll from the quality of their staff.

People are funny, they don't want to pay anything for government services. So the governmen agency posts all of these positions starting at $20k or $28k or $34k depending on the position. And you wind up with all of these under-educated, poorly trained, bottom of the barrel applicants. And if/when you do get a quality applicant they bail as soon as they can.

Then the public acts surprised when the quality of service at their borough hall is poor and/or or the people are surly.

Why would any kid fresh out of college want to take a planning job for some town that wants to pay him $28k/yr when he can make $38k at a private firm and actually have an opportunity to advance? And since most towns can't attract any talent they wind up subbing out most of the work to the private firms - so they wind up paying the kid his $38k plus a lot more (because the partners all need their cut, too).

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by solibs

I went to school for/work in the field of City Planning. I've worked at jobs for private firms and for state and municipal governments. When you're dealing with other municipalities you can always immediately tell which town is skimping on payroll from the quality of their staff.

People are funny, they don't want to pay anything for government services. So the governmen agency posts all of these positions starting at $20k or $28k or $34k depending on the position. And you wind up with all of these under-educated, poorly trained, bottom of the barrel applicants. And if/when you do get a quality applicant they bail as soon as they can.

Then the public acts surprised when the quality of service at their borough hall is poor and/or or the people are surly.

Why would any kid fresh out of college want to take a planning job for some town that wants to pay him $28k/yr when he can make $38k at a private firm and actually have an opportunity to advance? And since most towns can't attract any talent they wind up subbing out most of the work to the private firms - so they wind up paying the kid his $38k plus a lot more (because the partners all need their cut, too).

This could be recognized on the local level in NJ if the states were to consolidate their muncipalities. In theory, anyway, because you would broaden the spatial envelope of the newly consolidated towns, and thus, the tax base. More revenues and ratables are combined into the bigger agency, and the start $$ to employ planners etc would be increased.

[DecayingAngel]

Originally Posted by GiantRutgersfan

what exactly is the problem with state workers? Most of them are hard workers and do a good job (not talking about office people, but people who do real work)

I worked in a number of places for the State of NJ and all I can say is that I got tired of having to do the bulk of the work (mostly re-do the work) that incompetent state employees couldn't do. Yet because of the Civil Service regulations, I would never receive the title and pay that I should have. The biggest problem when the "bumping" came along is that it was simply based on seniority; i.e., how long a person kept their behind in a chair regardless of the quality of his/her work. I've seen people who couldn't push a noun against a verb or couldn't type for c*** yet were never threatened with being bumped because they had x amount of years in the system.

I've see things I can't even post here that, in private industry, would get someone fired on the spot. I've seen incompetent people re-instated with back pay in five figures when it was clear he/she should have been fired but played the system for all it was worth.

People put in positions because they were a friend of a friend of a politician--
Oh the stories I could tell....

End of rant.

[CuCullin]

Originally Posted by mike0421

This could be recognized on the local level in NJ if the states were to consolidate their muncipalities. In theory, anyway, because you would broaden the spatial envelope of the newly consolidated towns, and thus, the tax base. More revenues and ratables are combined into the bigger agency, and the start $$ to employ planners etc would be increased.

In theory.

Not in practice. In practice, there is a tendency towards increasing the overhead (ie: more middle management as more people are being serviced), increased costs of transportation, the same land requirements as before, existing contracts to be renegotiated (such as sewer, garbage, etc.) and potentially changing costs due to coverage area, a larger group of complainers (read: retirees) results in what amounts to a customer service office, etc., etc., etc....

And your costs go unchanged. Can some systems be combined in a reasonable fashion? Absolutely! But lets also keep in mind that small towns are almost always more fiscally responsible per capita.