Lakewood NJ , Jewish community

[Black & White]

Originally Posted by CaptainNJ

judaism is a male-dominated religion and there are many customs that would be quite offensive to your typical modern woman. that has nothing to do with accusations, its absolutely a part of the religion. its not as bad as the muslim stuff, id say its disrespectful and demeaning.

What are some of the Orthodox Jewish customs that you said would be offensive to a modern woman? I am asking because I honestly do not know, aside from biased lectures. When I ask my co-worker for information she goes of on rants about what she thinks is wrong and sick about all Orthodox Jewish men. Perhaps you can give me somewhat of a more unbiased view.

[CaptainNJ]

Originally Posted by Black & White

What are some of the Orthodox Jewish customs that you said would be offensive to a modern woman? I am asking because I honestly do not know, aside from biased lectures. When I ask my co-worker for information she goes of on rants about what she thinks is wrong and sick about all Orthodox Jewish men. Perhaps you can give me somewhat of a more unbiased view.

well, i know the men are generally more respected historically. in my temple, there were prayers where important figures in the religion were mentioned. as a reform temple, they added in their wives.

im no expert, rabbi joe can probably give a much more full run down. i know that women and men are separated in religious functions. i also believe the men are generally disrespectful of a woman's opinion and will ignore a woman or do something like cut a woman in line as if she werent there. that stuff is just from various things ive heard.

[808s]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

Or it could have been an actual Orthodox Jew. They aren't immune from deviant behavior any more than any other group. I remember a few years ago an Orthodox rabbi getting arrested for soliciting sex from a young boy prostitute out in Queens.

At any rate, if the exhibitionist was Orthodox, I hardly think his actions were representative of his community.

You have clowns, weirdos, and goof balls in every group. Either way it's a funny story though.

[808s]

I knew one person who grew up Orthodox but wound up becoming disillusioned after he graduated from college. He immediately got a job requiring him to relocate. The offer was too good for him to pass up so he relocated.

His family was not thrilled about the aspect of him leaving the community, so to speak but they were OK with it. Afterward when he came home to visit the rest of his community looked down upon him for not staying within the community. Eventually he switched to Conservative Judaism, he felt that religion is good for spiritual guidance but not to the point where you let it control your everyday life.

Originally Posted by Black & White

I admittedly do not know much about Jewish religious traditions, nor do I know many devout Jews, but there are zealots in most religous groups.

Anyway, a co-worker of mine is a non-practicing "former Jew" (her self-imposed moniker). She claims to be a former Orthodox Jew from Brooklyn who became seriously disillusioned with her community, due to what she said was rampant abuse of woman, sexual deviance, and blatant hypocrisy on the part of the men. It is certainly possible that her experiences were unique to her and her sweeping accusations are a result of her bitterness, but I have heard these accusations before. However, this was the first time I heard it from the mouth of one of their own (albeit formerly). If I am correct, doesn't each Orthodox sect have it's own leader called a Rebbe and don't these individual sects have their own idiosyncratic customs? Not saying it is endemic, but it certainly sounds like a situation where sexual deviance and abberant behavior could be fostered.

[RABBI JOE]

Originally Posted by CaptainNJ

well, i know the men are generally more respected historically. in my temple, there were prayers where important figures in the religion were mentioned. as a reform temple, they added in their wives.

im no expert, rabbi joe can probably give a much more full run down. i know that women and men are separated in religious functions. i also believe the men are generally disrespectful of a woman's opinion and will ignore a woman or do something like cut a woman in line as if she werent there. that stuff is just from various things ive heard.

Thanks!

There are aprox. 5 tractates of Talmud devoted to teaching the intricacies of the man/woman role in Judaism.

It is a very difficult job synthesizing the spiritual/religious outlook of the role of woman in Judaism, into a secular/American understanding.

Know however, that the Talmud prescribes and demands as a foundation to the man/woman roles, the highest degree of mutual respect and moral obligation between the two.

The orthodox spiritual understanding is along the lines that a woman should based upon the necessary above mentioned foundation, submit herself to the will of her husband, and encourage and support his life's quest.

The female population is usually encouraged and educated along those lines from the earliest age. But know that until marriage, the usual and normal sibling rivalry abounds!

This is all mentioned in a very basic and loose layman's terms. The actual understanding is beyond the scope of this forum, and an informative orthodox Rabbi should be consulted for proper understanding. I hope I helped!

[gh1507]

i live in raintree, and although i am 21 and have graduated from the lakewood school system. you are absolutely right. i couldnt put it better myself. i was held at knifepoint for trying to defend my brother on the school bus during a gang fight. ive seen fights break out so bad that even the teachers and principal were beaten to the point where some needee to go to the hospital. lunchroom chairs and tables flipped over, kids who have zero consideration for anyone else, and parents who dont know any better to teach their kids not to act like animals and that they are at school to learn. lakewood high school to me now looked like a prison. there is fences up, cameras in the parking lots, armed security guards, and soon to be metal detectors. i want to know who has the guts to take a stand against all this and make those schools what they used to be 10-15 years ago. they need kids willing to learn, school spirit, and motivation in sports and activities. they need to represent their school colors and put more plagues and trophies on the walls. turning a SCHOOL into a gang, drug and weapons infested hangout is not what lakewood should be about, and the people that run the board who that, but are scared to do something about it.

[gh1507]

i live in raintree, and although i am 21 and have graduated from the lakewood school system. you are absolutely right. i couldnt put it better myself. i was held at knifepoint for trying to defend my brother on the school bus during a gang fight. ive seen fights break out so bad that even the teachers and principal were beaten to the point where some needee to go to the hospital. lunchroom chairs and tables flipped over, kids who have zero consideration for anyone else, and parents who dont know any better to teach their kids not to act like animals and that they are at school to learn. lakewood high school to me now looked like a prison. there is fences up, cameras in the parking lots, armed security guards, and soon to be metal detectors. i want to know who has the guts to take a stand against all this and make those schools what they used to be 10-15 years ago. they need kids willing to learn, school spirit, and motivation in sports and activities. they need to represent their school colors and put more plagues and trophies on the walls. turning a SCHOOL into a gang, drug and weapons infested hangout is not what lakewood should be about, and the people that run the board who that, but are scared to do something about it.

[godbeliefismentalillness]

Well I guess the numerous times I've been stopped at a traffic light next to a lone male UOJ in his own car and he made lude gestures with his mouth and hands at me, that was just some bored teen who went to great lengths to have some shiggles. I have experienced more incidents like this with different men each time and I don't find it to be rare or someone impersonating another.... In cars, in stores, on the street. Maybe if they had a full time job, they wouldnt have time for this nonsense. Is it possible there is something psychological going on here which is manifesting in acting out in public? I propose this after a study of interactions and behavior between members of this community and outsiders. The effects of god belief, adherance to strict doctrine, indoctrination of people from birth and fear on the human mind are quite interesting to study. There's been plenty written on the subject but I wouldn't go as far as some people on this thread as to demand others go and study so they can understand ME better... Carry on all...live in peace...without god belief

[formerUOJ]

Originally Posted by TeacherNJ4

Hi All, I am a GCU Graduate student pursuing a Masters in Special Education. I commute an hour and 20 minutes north to school in Lakewood, NJ and thought I'm from Cape May County, I have never seen a Jewish population such as this one. Large religious affiliations have always intrigued me, and I like to educate myself as often as I can. So far, I've found there is a lot of hostility toward the Jewish population of Lakewood and I can, in a sense, see why. While I don't advocate alienating a group based on their religious affiliation, it seems as though the Jews of Lakewood have alienated themselves. I often see Jewish men walking the streets or pacing around street corners in the middle of the day, stroking their beard, and looking pensive. Why is this?? What does a typical day for them entail? It seems as though none of them work and large amounts of them live in ratty looking apartments. Secondly, I am exceptionally bothered, as a teacher, by the amount of toddlers [or not much older] walking the streets alone. Yes, I realize I drive directly through their neighborhood and they probably feel safe, but this is NOT SAFE. This is a kidnappers dream. Today I saw a three year old leading his one and a half year old sister down the street. Obviously the ages are approximate but how is child welfare services just turning the other cheek at this? This is absurd to me. Do the parents just not notice when their children walk out the front door and down the street??? Furthermore, as many others have said, they DO NOT obey the traffic laws. I have been nearly hit about a dozen times in the past week and constantly slam on my breaks. They also beep their horns incessantly. So, considering they don't follow the traffic laws and children roam around the streets unattended, how is this SAFE??? I'm sorry if this is offensive but I truly cannot figure out this way of life. I am Catholic and I am genuinely open minded to most people. I do believe that if a group isn't hurting anyone, let them be free to live as they wish, but it seems as though there is a lot of hostility amongst the non-Jewish and the Jewish communities and I'd love to be enlightened as to why.

Very astute observations. As my name implies I grew up as an Ultra Orthodox Jew in Lakewood but I am no longer observant. This community wants very much to "dwell alone" and want little or nothing to do with the surrounding non-religious, not to mention non-jewish population. I can understand their fear of assimilation and intermarriage but some of your other observations merit being addressed and corrected.

[formerUOJ]

Originally Posted by Black & White

I admittedly do not know much about Jewish religious traditions, nor do I know many devout Jews, but there are zealots in most religous groups.

Anyway, a co-worker of mine is a non-practicing "former Jew" (her self-imposed moniker). She claims to be a former Orthodox Jew from Brooklyn who became seriously disillusioned with her community, due to what she said was rampant abuse of woman, sexual deviance, and blatant hypocrisy on the part of the men. It is certainly possible that her experiences were unique to her and her sweeping accusations are a result of her bitterness, but I have heard these accusations before. However, this was the first time I heard it from the mouth of one of their own (albeit formerly). If I am correct, doesn't each Orthodox sect have it's own leader called a Rebbe and don't these individual sects have their own idiosyncratic customs? Not saying it is endemic, but it certainly sounds like a situation where sexual deviance and abberant behavior could be fostered.

Wow, I would very much like to meet this woman. I have had similar experiences (I grew up as a Haredi in Lakewood) but I must say that there are plenty of good and compassionate people among the UOJ. I wouldn't bash the entire population. The problem is the fundamentalism and narrow mindedness. The leaders of these communities-with their outdated fear/paranoia and short sightedness, are in large part to blame for the current situation.

This is a community shaped in large part by millenia of European Christian anti-Semitism. Sad but true.