Obama will ruin the economy (Stimulus at $900 billion) (Roosevelt: home, construction)

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by sholden

That's funny!

Since you seem to like wikipedia: Dust Bowl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you very much for your support of my point !!!

[Aylalou]

Originally Posted by theoakman

If Roosevelt saved you from the depression, how come it took 10 years from his election in 1933 for the depression to end? That's not what I would call good results. Hoover did get us into the depression. FDR prolonged it. You don't know your history. If you want to read a real history book on the Great Depression, I would suggest your read "America's Great Depression" by Murray Rothbard. Those history textbooks they gave you in high school ignore facts.

One of Roosevelt's plans to end the depression involved the AAA. They reasoned that if you burned all the crops and slaughtered all the livestock, that prices would rise and farmers would then be able to pay off their bills. So they paid farmers to burn their crops and slaughter their cattle/pigs and they disposed of all of them. And you wonder why people starved during the Great Depression? THERE WAS NO FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Franklin Delano Roosevelt, you managed to deprive millions of Americans from eating.

Screaming it out doesn't make you right. In fact, if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have to scream.

[theoakman]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

Thank you very much for your support of my point !!!

you guys aren't doing yourselves any favors by referencing articles that say this:

Additionally, the Federal Surplus Relief Corporation was created after over six million pigs were slaughtered and went to waste in order to stabilize prices.

I'll say it again, Roosevelt's answer to a starving population was KILL THE PIGS and then throw them away. You just proved my point.

[theoakman]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

Of course it wasn't one continuous weather system as you seem to suggest but it did last many years in the 30s and it did decimate the crops and cattle throughout the heartland. Apparently they left out that little tidbit about the 10 years of whats commonly known as the "dust bowl" in your book ? Sounds like poor editing to me....I'd complain if I were you instead of blaming it on Roosevelt !

read about the AAA. Despite whatever troubles farmers had with their crop from the weather, Roosevelt's solution to their problems was for them to burn whatever good crop they had, slaughter their cattle, and slaughter their pigs. You have no answer for this. The answer for starving people is not to burn whatever food they had left to eat. You don't want to acknowledge that Roosevelt purposely burned food and wasted livestock.

The weather is out of the presidents hand and he can bear no blame for it. On the other hand, purposely wasting crops and livestock was directly in his hands, and he does deserve the blame.

[theoakman]

Originally Posted by Aylalou

Screaming it out doesn't make you right. In fact, if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have to scream.

no, it's more like, if you would listen, I wouldn't have to scream. Go read about the Agricultural Adjustment Administration and then decide who knows what they are talking about. Until you read about the AAA, you have no business speaking on this matter.

[sholden]

Originally Posted by theoakman

you guys aren't doing yourselves any favors by referencing articles that say this:



I'll say it again, Roosevelt's answer to a starving population was KILL THE PIGS and then throw them away. You just proved my point.

I haven't heard anyone say that the AAA disn't happen. I did read you post laughing at the absurdity that the dust bowl could have happened.

Roosevelt was an idiot, well that's not fair, his economic advisors were idiots, as were Hoover's. Doesn't mean you pretend one of the most well known natural disasters in the US never happened.

[theoakman]

Originally Posted by sholden

I haven't heard anyone say that the AAA disn't happen. I did read you post laughing at the absurdity that the dust bowl could have happened.

Roosevelt was an idiot, well that's not fair, his economic advisors were idiots, as were Hoover's. Doesn't mean you pretend one of the most well known natural disasters in the US never happened.

Well maybe you need to reread the posts. Because Flyersfan openly called my reference to the AAA a government conspiracy. Furthermore, I did not say the Dust Bowl didn't happen. I said it didn't have anything to do with the national famine that existed throughout the entire country. The dust bowl did not affect farmland in New Jersey, it did not affect farmland in New York, it affected the plain lands in the Mid West. You have no explanation as to why someone's famished farmland in Kansas would cause someone in New Jersey to starve. These two refuse to openly acknowledge that Roosevelt burned down fields and slaughtered livestock nationwide, which led to famine all over. Furthermore, he also pursued these policies in areas that were affected by such a storm, because they wanted to reduce surpluses, meaning, there was too much food, not too little. In fact, they openly referenced an article that stated Roosevelt slaughtered the livestock along the lands of the affected plains, thus proving my point. Roosevelt didn't get America out of depression. He made it worse. The Dust Bowl was not the cause of scarcity of food in the depression. Roosevelt was. If the dust bowl was the cause of starvation, they wouldn't have been able to even use the world "surplus".

[sholden]

Originally Posted by theoakman

Well maybe you need to reread the posts. Because Flyersfan openly called my reference to the AAA a government conspiracy. Furthermore, I did not say the Dust Bowl didn't happen. I said it didn't have anything to do with the national famine that existed throughout the entire country. The dust bowl did not affect farmland in New Jersey, it did not affect farmland in New York, it affected the plain lands in the Mid West. You have no explanation as to why someone's famished farmland in Kansas would cause someone in New Jersey to starve. These two refuse to openly acknowledge that Roosevelt burned down fields and slaughtered livestock nationwide, which led to famine all over. Furthermore, he also pursued these policies in areas that were affected by such a storm, because they wanted to reduce surpluses, meaning, there was too much food, not too little. In fact, they openly referenced an article that stated Roosevelt slaughtered the livestock along the lands of the affected plains, thus proving my point. Roosevelt didn't get America out of depression. He made it worse. The Dust Bowl was not the cause of scarcity of food in the depression. Roosevelt was. If the dust bowl was the cause of starvation, they wouldn't have been able to even use the world "surplus".

Surely it was a government conspiracy??? After all the government did it. It involved more than one person. And to top it all off it was clearly idiotic and only in the interests of a small number of wealthy people.

They did have trade and transport back then. The dust bowl affected area wasn't just growing food for itself.

But I agree Roosevelt, or at least is economic advisors, made a necessary severe recession into the Great Depression by applying ridiculous Keynesian and central planned principles to the economy. And Hoover kicked the thing off with the same thing - government intervention to try and pump up the economy.

Since we are doing that just to an even greater extreme now - and have been for the better part of two decades we are really in for it this time round. But as I mentioned before, there's no way out anyway - the wheels are in motion all the government can do it delay is a little and make it much worse. They probably can't delay it in anymore in fact (that's what made it so big this time round is that the last few recessions weren't allowed to run their course) so all they will do is make it worse.

And they are very good at that.

[Jerseyt719]

If we really want to get out of this mess, we need to manufacture products that we can actually use and more importantly sell and take away the demand for foreign goods. It creates jobs, it creates supply, it begins a cycle of economic prosperity.

We need to quit going overseas for everything. We need to be more self sufficient.

[tallguylehigh]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

Gee......we're in the economic crapper but the Iraq war and the spending 12 billion dollars a month on it doesn't seem to be helping us at all......and we've already been in this war twice as long as WW2....if you follow your logic we should be twice prosperous now as after WW2 ? I could be wrong but I think it may have something to do with the Federal government pressuring banks to make loans to low income familys to get them into houses with no oversight on the criteria they used ?

Cost to fund a war does not equal economic stimulus. WWII generated thousands of jobs to build boats, trucks, tanks, planes, ammo, etc in MASSIVE quantities. While we are spending money for the war in Iraq, it is not the same type of spending as was experienced in WWII.

Originally Posted by theoakman

Maybe you should reread my post. I've read more books and scholarly papers on the Great Depression than 99.99% of Americans. Your sense of history is relegated to your high school history text book.

I suggest you pick up a real book. Go read Murray Rothbard or Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize Winner), you might learn something outside of the normal revisionist history than you are accustomed to.

:bows: to Milton. My business school wanted to name something after him because he went there for undergrad and he said no because they didnt charge him enough to go there (stats subsidies).

Originally Posted by sholden

Since 90% of Roosevelt's New Deal was actually put in place by Hoover, how exactly do you think Roosevelt saved us?

I agree Hoover got us into the depression, with the exact same things the Keynesians say got us out under Roosevelt.

Yes of course the Keynesians proclaim the New Deal saved the day - ignoring that the only Depression in US history was the the one that the New Deal policies preceded, and all the previous deflationary downturns didn't result in such a thing.

I guess the silver lining of this might be the end og Keynesian craziness, after all their stimulus ideas are being implemented and the whole thing is going to implode because of it. Then again, as always, they'll say "if you had stimulated more!".

For better or worse, with these stimulus packages I see a return to Keynesian policies. For the past couple of years, the supply siders have enjoyed their deregulation and have run amok. Now, with this financial mess, people want structure, they WANT regulation, they want accountability and that is not the way of the supply sider, it is the way of the Keynesian.