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Old 06-09-2009, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,540,734 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
Yes and no.

The problem comes to management. You stick a teacher in a problem class, they are lucky to get them all quiet, nevermind to get them to do well on standardized tests.
That's because the students have no incentive to be quiet (the school can't kick them out)

Quote:
I fear that if there WERE incentives, they would not be awarded to those that deserve them, and be typically fat-catted to those that kissed butt the best (as with most orginizations, both civil and private).
Yes but market driven incentives tend to work much better than no incentives. The market tends to be very results oriented.

Quote:
The problem is not the Unions, but the fact that without them, teachers would be treated like dirt.
Then they would leave and find other jobs.

Unions are a huge problem, because they go out of their way to blur the distinction between good and bad teachers.

Quote:
I think the only time teaching is easy is when the teacher(s) themselves give up. When they do not give a poo anymore, then we see problems. But unlike any other profession, that usually does not start at the get-go.
Right -- because, ba-domp! they have no incentives. Even the most self-motivated person gets dragged down eventually.

Quote:
And the fact that other public schools have a SMALLER budget, and still do better. Money is being thrown at a problem, not USED to solve it.
Yes, because those schools do not have "problem students" who are able to impose costs on the school district and other stduents with impunity.

Quote:
There needs to be a salary structure that prevents the two branches from seperating as much as they have.
Misses the point. There needs to be better allocation of resources. Paying superintendents the same amount could be fine if they consolidate, e.g. remove extra management but pay them the same.

This is the sort of problem the marketplace solves pretty well and govt bureaucracy messes up.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Home
1,479 posts, read 1,765,180 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracer View Post
"$23,000/pupil is outrageous especially for the low quality product produced."

2006 stats show NJ has about 27,000 prisioners who require about $39,000 a year to maintain.

Both situations reveal some of the leaks in the hull that result in more cries of 'bailout' instead of repair.

Consider so many other examples of government intervention that ignore the leaks in preference to bailing the ocean out of our boat and you can begin to understand the frustration that has become, "the state of NJ".

If you could afford to move and you cannot change the way the state is run, then you run....away.
I think the main problem comes to the point where if you really get on the boat and start looking around, you realize Mr Smithers is the true owner.

To spin another analogy, to be truly fixed in any term of office, these programs would need to be dry docked and some of them gutted. No politician wants to lose support frmo a community when they decide to start making the needed changes. And the other thing is, a lot of the people that would be effected (the leeches and lampreys) are not going to make life easier for you.

Amazing how the ones that do the least work prove to be the most industrious when it comes to opposing change that would effect them!
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Home
1,479 posts, read 1,765,180 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
If they can't attract teachers who are very good, that would be an argument for increasing, not cutting teacher salaries.

Of course if I'm right and it's primarily about the incentives and resource allocation, then you could do much better without changing aggregate teacher pay.
100% agree. Maybe not on the solution, but that is one of the problems. You see it in several professions. Engineering (mine) is another. There is just so little monetary incentive to work hard in college to get that diploma that will only earn you, average, $35K a year out of school.

People in Hoboken got more than that on commission for selling ONE HOME! (Which explains the preference of real estate agencies that occurred during the bubble).

Maybe the pre-tenured teachers should be given a lighter schedule based on their low salaries, and then instead of protection from being fired, get a sizable increase in salary once that tenure is over and they are decided to be qualified for a full schedule.

The way they do it now is they load the pre-tenured teachers as much as they can, and search for more. If they can find another before they award tenure they fire the teacher and hire another right out of school.

Saves money? Sort of. You get a bunch of inexperienced faculty that does not know how to work with others, and a bunch of tenured teachers (mentors/etc) that get bitter at the policies.

So.... seeing the problem is easy. Making a solution that WORKS isn't. (Anyone that says it is has never really seen the full scale of the problem. I have yet to see a solution to just about ANYTHING that would work that has been posted on a BBS, so I don't know why I keep expecting more... )

Last edited by Ninjahedge; 06-09-2009 at 12:31 PM..
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,892 posts, read 8,594,716 times
Reputation: 3103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
100% agree. Maybe not on the solution, but that is noe of the problems. You see it in several professions. Engineering (mine) is another. There is just so little monitary incentive to work hard in college to get that diploma that will only earn you, average, $35K a year out of school.

People in Hoboken got more than that on commission for selling ONE HOME! (Which explains the proliference of real estate agencies that occured during the bubble).

Maybe the pre-tenured teachers should be given a lighter schedule based on their low salaries, and then instead of protection from being fired, get a sizable increase in salary once that tenure is over and they are decided to be qualified for a full schedule.

The way they do it now is they load the pre-tenured teachers as much as they can, and search for more. If they can find another before they award tenure they fire the teacher and hire another right out of school.

Saves money? Sort of. You get a bunch of inexperienced faculty that does not know how to work with others, and a bunch of tenured teachers (mentors/etc) that get bitter at the policies.

So.... seeing the problem is easy. Making a solution that WORKS isn't. (Anyone that says it is has never really seen the full scale of teh problem. I have yet to see a solution to just about ANYTHING that would work that has been posted on a BBS, so I don't know why I keep expecting more... )
The lowest paid teacher in the Hoboken school system makes $51,000. many make well over 100K.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Home
1,479 posts, read 1,765,180 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
That's because the students have no incentive to be quiet (the school can't kick them out)
I partially agree, but it isn't a question of kicking out, it is a question of dicipline.

When a student can ASSAULT a teacher, and the teacher cannot fight back or be charged, then our system is broken.

Example, although not with a teacher. A technician was working on a vending machine that was known to give free stuff if you hit it/wiggled it right. While he was working on it, a PITA little spoiled kid (he had a rep at the school) starts futzing with it. The guy told him at least twice to stop. The kid just looked at him and laughed and kept doing it (he might have done more than laugh, but I do not have the specifics).

The technician picked the kid up and pinned him on the wall and told him to stop.

He was charged with assault, the kid was not charged with stealing/attempted robbery. When an adult has no power over a teen, that teen will have no respect for the adult (at last the ones that need the most dicipline, that is).

Quote:
Yes but market driven incentives tend to work much better than no incentives. The market tends to be very results oriented.
I would disagree.

Wall street and the recent bust would say a lot to that. There were many people that made a lot of money off of questionable means, and they were all rewarded for it. The workers at the bottom paid for it when that bottom fell out.

Quote:
Then they would leave and find other jobs.
If you loved music, and studied the Cello your entire life and got to play in an orchestra, would you want to stop playing if you found out the orchestra sucked?

Asking a teacher to not teach is similar. It is not like they just chose this because it matched their skill set. Most of todays teachers REALLY want to teach. And since they REALLY want that, they are taken for all that want can yeild.

Quote:
Unions are a huge problem, because they go out of their way to blur the distinction between good and bad teachers.
True, but without them, the administration would not go out of its way to do the same. If you assume that no protection will weed out the bad and promote the good somehow, then you have not seen how even WITH the protection, that does not happen. They promote the people they are chummy with. Making them department chair(men) and possibly elevating them to administrative positions.

When the scheduling is done, they are given the "good" classes, not 9th grade general science.

If there was a workable solution for this, I would be for it, unfortunately I have seen some of the inner workings, and hoping that everyone will be honest, come clean, and work to benefit the children if protection was cut ain't gonna happen.

It will all boil down to $$.

Quote:
Right -- because, ba-domp! they have no incentives. Even the most self-motivated person gets dragged down eventually.
Actually, one chemistry teacher I knew gave up because of the political machinations. One guy got promoted to VP, and he got bumped to department chairman.

The guy did such a bad job as VP he wasn't fired (because he had connections), he was simply demoted BACK to department chairman. Not back to regular teacher.

The chem teacher said, you know what? No matter how good I am or how hard I work, this is what is going to happen.

The problem is not just that they are not being rewarded, but they are also not being appreciated and, as you said earlier, they have no power in the classroom anymore (one friend quit when she could no longer send one troublemaker to the principals office. The kid was texting and talking in class, all sorts of stuff, but one complaint from the parents and she was forced to put up with it).

So it isn't just about money, but money could help.

Sometimes when money is the only incentive, you get people who are more concerned with IT than your kid.

Quote:
Yes, because those schools do not have "problem students" who are able to impose costs on the school district and other stduents with impunity.
The money is being used incorrectly.

My school had one kid that ran over cats with a lawnmower. He went through our school, about 20 years ago, with a fire axe and damaged all he cuold touch, including a Planetarioum (that should narrow your search down a bit! ). We still delt with it.

The whole thing is, you do not throw money at a school to get them new computers when they are having problems with teen pregnancy. You do not get a Baby Grand piano for the music Class because you have the most teen delinquency.

They need to do some things differently, maybe not as much as say Bergen Tech, but even places like Oakland have Auto Shop as a class.

Sometimes these people think that all you need is funding, but that is just ignoring the problem.

You don't throw a bunch of proctologists into a field hospital and expect more than a platoon without hemorrhoids.

Quote:
Misses the point. There needs to be better allocation of resources. Paying superintendents the same amount could be fine if they consolidate, e.g. remove extra management but pay them the same.
That is still paying them less.

You pay them the same for more, or less for the same.

Quote:
This is the sort of problem the marketplace solves pretty well and govt bureaucracy messes up.
No, they both mess it up, in different ways. Private industry also fails. It also plays dirty (WalMart). It is not interested in the people, only in what the people will pay them. And one thing they will all find is that it is more profitable to open buisness in teh wealthy suburbs than in Newark or Patterson.

So we will have a similar problem until the government comes in and provides "incentives" for private education to cater to these areas.

Same problem, different pantsuit.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Home
1,479 posts, read 1,765,180 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
The lowest paid teacher in the Hoboken school system makes $51,000. many make well over 100K.
Name them, and what they teach.

How long have they been teaching?

How many classes/kids.

Links?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Holmdel, NJ
17,052 posts, read 12,474,492 times
Reputation: 9574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
Name them, and what they teach.

How long have they been teaching?

How many classes/kids.

Links?
best i could do:
http://php.app.com/edstaff/results2....&Submit=Submit
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:01 PM
 
Location: 38 38' 45" N, -90 20' 08" W
7,646 posts, read 10,730,117 times
Reputation: 6159
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
Some of those salaries are completely obnoxious. You notice many of these teachers in this query are like career politicians: 30, 35 years of experience. They know a good gravy train when they see it.
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:19 PM
 
Location: North Jersey
10,523 posts, read 14,394,599 times
Reputation: 6117
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
Not to shabby for 10 months work per year
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,540,734 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
I partially agree, but it isn't a question of kicking out, it is a question of dicipline.

When a student can ASSAULT a teacher, and the teacher cannot fight back or be charged, then our system is broken.

Example, although not with a teacher. A technician was working on a vending machine that was known to give free stuff if you hit it/wiggled it right. While he was working on it, a PITA little spoiled kid (he had a rep at the school) starts futzing with it. The guy told him at least twice to stop. The kid just looked at him and laughed and kept doing it (he might have done more than laugh, but I do not have the specifics).

The technician picked the kid up and pinned him on the wall and told him to stop.

He was charged with assault, the kid was not charged with stealing/attempted robbery. When an adult has no power over a teen, that teen will have no respect for the adult (at last the ones that need the most dicipline, that is).



I would disagree.

Wall street and the recent bust would say a lot to that. There were many people that made a lot of money off of questionable means, and they were all rewarded for it. The workers at the bottom paid for it when that bottom fell out.



If you loved music, and studied the Cello your entire life and got to play in an orchestra, would you want to stop playing if you found out the orchestra sucked?

Asking a teacher to not teach is similar. It is not like they just chose this because it matched their skill set. Most of todays teachers REALLY want to teach. And since they REALLY want that, they are taken for all that want can yeild.



True, but without them, the administration would not go out of its way to do the same. If you assume that no protection will weed out the bad and promote the good somehow, then you have not seen how even WITH the protection, that does not happen. They promote the people they are chummy with. Making them department chair(men) and possibly elevating them to administrative positions.

When the scheduling is done, they are given the "good" classes, not 9th grade general science.

If there was a workable solution for this, I would be for it, unfortunately I have seen some of the inner workings, and hoping that everyone will be honest, come clean, and work to benefit the children if protection was cut ain't gonna happen.

It will all boil down to $$.



Actually, one chemistry teacher I knew gave up because of the political machinations. One guy got promoted to VP, and he got bumped to department chairman.

The guy did such a bad job as VP he wasn't fired (because he had connections), he was simply demoted BACK to department chairman. Not back to regular teacher.

The chem teacher said, you know what? No matter how good I am or how hard I work, this is what is going to happen.

The problem is not just that they are not being rewarded, but they are also not being appreciated and, as you said earlier, they have no power in the classroom anymore (one friend quit when she could no longer send one troublemaker to the principals office. The kid was texting and talking in class, all sorts of stuff, but one complaint from the parents and she was forced to put up with it).

So it isn't just about money, but money could help.

Sometimes when money is the only incentive, you get people who are more concerned with IT than your kid.



The money is being used incorrectly.

My school had one kid that ran over cats with a lawnmower. He went through our school, about 20 years ago, with a fire axe and damaged all he cuold touch, including a Planetarioum (that should narrow your search down a bit! ). We still delt with it.

The whole thing is, you do not throw money at a school to get them new computers when they are having problems with teen pregnancy. You do not get a Baby Grand piano for the music Class because you have the most teen delinquency.

They need to do some things differently, maybe not as much as say Bergen Tech, but even places like Oakland have Auto Shop as a class.

Sometimes these people think that all you need is funding, but that is just ignoring the problem.

You don't throw a bunch of proctologists into a field hospital and expect more than a platoon without hemorrhoids.



That is still paying them less.

You pay them the same for more, or less for the same.



No, they both mess it up, in different ways. Private industry also fails. It also plays dirty (WalMart). It is not interested in the people, only in what the people will pay them. And one thing they will all find is that it is more profitable to open buisness in teh wealthy suburbs than in Newark or Patterson.

So we will have a similar problem until the government comes in and provides "incentives" for private education to cater to these areas.

Same problem, different pantsuit.
Really quickly,
(1) discipline is also about incentives
(2) The Wall St meltdown was also about "wrong incentives". Compensating these guys is extraordinarily difficult, because they are experts at gaming the system. It's not nearly as difficult elsewhere to implement half-decent incentives.
(3) if teachers really would be willing to teach for free, then why not have volunteer teachers, if the market permits it ? I doubt this would destroy the teaching profession though. People are willing to pay an arm and a leg for good schools (you read this board, right ?)

The idea that they aren't going to get paid if the union goes away is a fallacy. They will be paid, and they will be paid in a way that they get to see most of their pay instead of their money getting caught up in paternalistic red tape (as is the case with UAW employees who take home 26 of the $78/hr it costs to employ them)

(4) Markets are much better at allocating money than central planners. It's not "the same problem" at all. The mindset that it is, is the main reason that we have a feudal system. It's because people like you are quite happy to make only minor tweaks at the margins to a monstrous medieval bureaucracy.

(5) Wallmart employees aren't paid much because the work is relatively unskilled. There is a market for good teachers, and people are willing to pay for them.

(6) There are several ways that getting rid of the feudal system would help kids in poor inner city suburbs.

(a) It would allow the better performing kids to get out of bad class rooms.
(b) it would give the kids on the margins some motivation to behave themselves (so they don't get kicked out)
(c) The really hard cases don't need a soft class room environment, they need boot camp. The basis for deciding who gets who should be the end result of a mutual selection process (schools, teachers and students)
(d) The government could provide funding without administering it (e.g. like they do with GM -- they might be silly enough to fund them but at least they're not running them ... not yet anyway)
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