Is New Jersey Really that Horrible? (Paterson, Passaic: calculated, tax rates, assess)

[Ninjahedge]

Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD

I would like to hear your response to my last post, but I will move on to other areas of your post. Now, you are saying that urban cops are not underpaid? I disagree. They may not have the educational requirements of most white collar jobs, but to be good, they need skills and training that many white collar workers may not be able to handle, and for crying out loud, they risk their lives every day to keep us white collar guys safe. The same goes for firemen. How much compensation is that worth? But in a free market, the best cops would make substantially more than they do now, and the doughnut shop guys would make substantially less. Of course the problem with this, and with teachers, and with firemen, etc is that the wealthy neighborhoods will have the best of all of them and the poorer neighborhoods will have the worst.

AMD, although I agree with you on a lot, this is difficult to put so simply.

Urban cops, in GENERAL, get paid less, unless hey have political connections. Hoboken is a prime example, where most of the force is now ranked high enough to get office duty rather than out on the streets.

Sounds fine until you start adding up the salary, OT and other assignments and you see where this money sinkhole is going.

The fire department is similarly top-heavy and payed on a skew, but whatever on that.

The unions would lose most of their power, if not eliminated completely, and people would be paid on merit as would their benefits be based on merit. I believe this would shift a lot of resources from the business sector, if for nothing else, successful people would be paying more for services. People will pay whatever they can afford for good education for their kids, for protection for their family against crime and fires, and for the most competent health care professionals they can get.

It would not work that way. Teachers, teh good ones at least, are generally not the type of people taht go into taching for the money. They go because they like their subject and they like helping people learn.

That does NOT make them the movers and the shakers that would be able to negotiate with the people who are paying them for what they do. Having MANY relations and friends thereof involved in the teaching profession, I can assure you that if the protections afforded by the unioms were removed, we would see the same level of butt-kissing, backstabbing and other techniques used by people who would be introduced to the profecssion on the grounds of possibly higher pay, as we do in the professional/private industry now.

Look at how scientists, one of the highest educated levels of society, get paid shmutz unless they come up with something that is not only miraculous, but is not automatically owned by the people they are enslav...I mean, working for.

Compared to a banker, Wall street type or even an accountant, science in general gets paid bupkis.

Teachers are a similar grain. Removing union protection will not make them all of a sudden spring to life and produce the next level of Nobelaureate students that will change the world. It will just get Superintendent Ted's friends and families into some really nice jobs.

Look at that. I'm making your whole free market argument for you.

Meh.

So back to my previous post, do you know understand why most medical professionals dont have the luxury of a free market system? Again, I am not judging it as right or wrong, but dont tell me I'm working under a free market, because I am not.

As for free market on medical, that is tough as well. But the one thing I CAN say is that our medical professionals should not be told by the insurance industry what they can or cannot charge for peoples health.

I would really prefer the cost to be determined by the public and the wellbeing of the practicioners, not by the profit margins of the insurance companies.

[Ninjahedge]

Originally Posted by The Michigan Man

I care because I would like:

- the freedom to choose between a full and self service station
- the state to not impose silly regulations that add unecessary costs; either the consumer or the business owner is hurt by these regulations, and neither should happen

Ha, you are funny.

Freedom my patootie. You make it sound like this is some sort of Bill of Rights issue.

"The Man" is keeping you DOWN because he won't let you pump your own gas.

Geez man, you need to stop worrying about the color of your womans nailpolish and really determine if that adams apple is as big as other people say it is.....

[AnesthesiaMD]

Originally Posted by Ninjahedge

AMD, although I agree with you on a lot, this is difficult to put so simply.

Urban cops, in GENERAL, get paid less, unless hey have political connections. Hoboken is a prime example, where most of the force is now ranked high enough to get office duty rather than out on the streets.

Sounds fine until you start adding up the salary, OT and other assignments and you see where this money sinkhole is going.

The fire department is similarly top-heavy and payed on a skew, but whatever on that.



It would not work that way. Teachers, teh good ones at least, are generally not the type of people taht go into taching for the money. They go because they like their subject and they like helping people learn.

That does NOT make them the movers and the shakers that would be able to negotiate with the people who are paying them for what they do. Having MANY relations and friends thereof involved in the teaching profession, I can assure you that if the protections afforded by the unioms were removed, we would see the same level of butt-kissing, backstabbing and other techniques used by people who would be introduced to the profecssion on the grounds of possibly higher pay, as we do in the professional/private industry now.

Look at how scientists, one of the highest educated levels of society, get paid shmutz unless they come up with something that is not only miraculous, but is not automatically owned by the people they are enslav...I mean, working for.

Compared to a banker, Wall street type or even an accountant, science in general gets paid bupkis.

Teachers are a similar grain. Removing union protection will not make them all of a sudden spring to life and produce the next level of Nobelaureate students that will change the world. It will just get Superintendent Ted's friends and families into some really nice jobs.



Meh.



As for free market on medical, that is tough as well. But the one thing I CAN say is that our medical professionals should not be told by the insurance industry what they can or cannot charge for peoples health.

I would really prefer the cost to be determined by the public and the wellbeing of the practicioners, not by the profit margins of the insurance companies.

I will just quickly say that I think you are mixing the two models. If a total free market were granted, relationships go out the window and everything is based on merit. It doesn't matter if the teacher is friends with the principle, if he/she is bad, she is out the door in a wealthy town. Now if a good teacher is teaching in Newark, the people of Short Hills may offer him/her double or triple her salary to come to Short Hills. Maybe he/she will take it, maybe not, but the majority of good teachers will end up in the wealthier towns.

[AC/PHILLY/NJ/NYC]

The main reason why most people complain about Jersey is the taxes. NJ ranked #1 with taxes, but #2 for highest salary per state. The salaries compensate for the higher taxes.

[Ninjahedge]

Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD

I will just quickly say that I think you are mixing the two models. If a total free market were granted, relationships go out the window and everything is based on merit.

That is only if things were not decided/run by human beings. You can't have a pure model of any method of regulation or governance when humans are involved.

So while you may be right about the teoretical "free market" you put it in the polluted world of humankind and you will definitely see Alpha Male/Pack and Family Ties (no, not Ale Keaton) comine into the fray.

It doesn't matter if the teacher is friends with the principle, if he/she is bad, she is out the door in a wealthy town.

I will bet you money that is not true. My public school was VERY wealthy. I think Ridgewood being the only one ni the area that was moreso.

Anyway, they would do things like hire in teachers that wee friends of someone at a higer payscale based on experience they said they had but no-one verified. Uncool.

These teachers did not get fired, they QUIT because they found out that teaching is not as easy as they thought. Even a slacker has to be an ironically skilled slacker.

Anyway, another example of where this could go wrong is simple. Good students. You get a class of gifted students, you really have to do very little with them other than direct them where to go. They will score well on most standardized tests. That was one thing our own Department Chairman did. He would handpick a few students, ad make sure they took ALL the tests, so we ended up with the best socres on some thnigs (BTW, I was 2nd in the state in Physics... and no, that really did not get me much. )

Anyway, you have connections, you do not get Physical Science with some 9th graders that are only there because they need to be, not because they WANT to be. Their scores are generally abysmal, and only a REALLY REALLY good teacher and diciplinarian can get them to do well enoug to be not only recognised, but also bring their merits to the attension of the board enough to be promoted/paid justly.

The teacher that gets XX state science champions will more likely be recognised than the one who teaches Bruno Algebra. (not saying that EITHER is something to be overlooked!)

Now if a good teacher is teaching in Newark, the people of Short Hills may offer him/her double or triple her salary to come to Short Hills. Maybe he/she will take it, maybe not, but the majority of good teachers will end up in the wealthier towns.

That is true. Also for the reason similar to what I said about classes. You get kids who WANT to learn, and parents that will work with you and ack you up, you will go far.

Extreme examples of BAD parenting on either side o the spectrum...


Good parent: "What can we do to help Billy learn his math?"

Poor Bad Parent: ""
(They never ask. True story, one woman who was teaching at a poor district moved into my relatives district/changed jobs. They had a parent teacher night and they old her to prepare. That night she came running in asking my relative "OMG, my room is full, what am I going to do??" She never had any parents show up before...)

Rich Bad parent: Why did you fail my son? If he does not get a good grade that will ruin his GPA and make it hard to get into XXX! I am going to speak to your supervisor about this!

I WISH I was exaggerating on this.

BTW, schools do not have headhunters. Maybe they should! A school will never go into Newark and scout for good teachers and try to hire them away.

I don't know how that would work, either way really. Given that teaching is so hard to evaluate in a polluted observational environment subject to so many variables NOT in the control of the teacher (Parents, students, WHAT classes given, budget for the class, hell wvwn what time the classes are...)


Anyway, although I am GLAD we are getting off such a deliberately flame-starting worded thread topic, we ARE going way off topic.

I am trying to remember how/why this was even a proof/reason that NJ is so "horrible", I mean, with all those self serve freedom fighters out there, I have lost my original train of thought!!!

[Ninjahedge]

Originally Posted by AC/PHILLY/NJ/NYC

The main reason why most people complain about Jersey is the taxes. NJ ranked #1 with taxes, but #2 for highest salary per state. The salaries compensate for the higher taxes.

The only problem I have is when the taxes start getting out of proportion compared to what is actually given. Montclaire is an example. Obviously they have a very nice town center, but aside from the over-inflated housing cost, the $12K/yr (average?) in taxes is EXORBITANT!

I do not cae if the lamps on main street are plated in Gold, sometimes you have to start looking at when a monitary amount has reached its peek efficiency. The first $100 spent on something may do poop. The first $1000 may do a lot, but what does the second $1000 do? A lot of poop? A lot of QUALITY poop on a project that has already goten the funds it needs to truly be effective?

No matter how much money a person has, they never have diamonds on their toilet paper.

[gradstudent77]

Originally Posted by Ninjahedge

The only problem I have is when the taxes start getting out of proportion compared to what is actually given. Montclaire is an example. Obviously they have a very nice town center, but aside from the over-inflated housing cost, the $12K/yr (average?) in taxes is EXORBITANT!

I do not cae if the lamps on main street are plated in Gold, sometimes you have to start looking at when a monitary amount has reached its peek efficiency. The first $100 spent on something may do poop. The first $1000 may do a lot, but what does the second $1000 do? A lot of poop? A lot of QUALITY poop on a project that has already goten the funds it needs to truly be effective?

No matter how much money a person has, they never have diamonds on their toilet paper.

I wish we could form an organization whose purpose was taking over an entire town and slashing the property taxes. Then, we could live in this metro with Texas-style property taxes. Sometimes, I wish I was the leader of a huge ethnic group, the possibilities for real estate manipulation can't be beat.

[KathyA11]

Originally Posted by gradstudent77

I wish we could form an organization whose purpose was taking over an entire town and slashing the property taxes.

And just what would you cut? The schools? Police? Fire? Garbage collection? Recycling? Programs for the elderly? The health department? Paving bad streets? Close the parks, shutter the recreation departments?

Everyone complains about the taxes -- until the programs that they use are curtailed. Then they scream even more loudly. It's NIMBY -- in reverse.

Do you realize that the tax rates here in NJ are set by the county, not the municipality? Do you realize that tax bills here in NJ are split into three parts -- School, County, Municipal? You can cut the Municipal portion to the bone, but if the school portion goes up, because (as is happened in Bayonne) there are hundreds more kids enrolled because the Catholic grammar schools all closed except one -- your bill may go up anyway. And if the County wants more than its usual pound of flesh, then they'll increase that portion of the rate no matter what.

[gradstudent77]

Originally Posted by KathyA11

And just what would you cut? The schools? Police? Fire? Garbage collection? Recycling? Programs for the elderly? The health department? Paving bad streets? Close the parks, shutter the recreation departments?

Everyone complains about the taxes -- until the programs that they use are curtailed. Then they scream even more loudly. It's NIMBY -- in reverse.

Do you realize that the tax rates here in NJ are set by the county, not the municipality? Do you realize that tax bills here in NJ are split into three parts -- School, County, Municipal? You can cut the Municipal portion to the bone, but if the school portion goes up, because (as is happened in Bayonne) there are hundreds more kids enrolled because the Catholic grammar schools all closed except one -- your bill may go up anyway. And if the County wants more than its usual pound of flesh, then they'll increase that portion of the rate no matter what.

How does the rest of the country do it?

[KathyA11]

Originally Posted by gradstudent77

How does the rest of the country do it?

I have no clue how the tax rates are set in other parts of the country -- but I worked in municipal government for over 30 years and took several continuing education courses related to my positions in the Tax Collector's Office and the Tax Assessor's Office over the years, which is why I know how it's done here in NJ.

According to the NJ state Constitution, schools must be primarily funded by real estate taxes -- which is an overbearing burden on the owners of single-family homes.

In other states, while RE taxes may fund a portion of the school burden, it's only a portion -- other funds come from state income and sales taxes, as well as other levies.

In NJ, to change the way schools are funded would require a Constitutional convention.