Is New Jersey Really that Horrible? (Newark: school tuition, vouchers, wage)

[tahiti]

Originally Posted by gradstudent77

Really, I wouldn't have thought that was the case. Did I mean to say NC-style tax?

I guess

[TheEmissary]

Originally Posted by tahiti

No, I'm talking $17K on a 4500 sq ft house. (and yes, I know someone with this tax bill)

tahiti - I'm surprised it's that high - even in Texas, but like everywhere else, it depends on location and materials used in the construction...basically how much the house is "assessed" for. You can have a large tract house here, or a similar-sized custom home with every bell and whistle imaginable.... a mini-Biltmore house in essence, with a much heftier price tag! You pays your money - you takes your choice!

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by KathyA11

And just what would you cut? The schools? Police? Fire? Garbage collection? Recycling? Programs for the elderly? The health department? Paving bad streets? Close the parks, shutter the recreation departments?

Start with the schools. Cut the budget to zero. There's no reason the government should be running them. There is a case for government funding (so that the poor still get access) but this isn't a huge issue in wealthy neighhorhoods.

Some items like waste management are obviously unavoidable.

Programs for the elderly ? These could be cut, though I doubt they're much of the budget.

What do local health departments do ? It seems like an unnecessary layer of administration unless the town is very large. Might be useful for handling crises (e.g. swine flue) otherwise ... ?

You can charge $ for access to parks.

That's a start ...

[BergenCountyJohnny]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

Start with the schools. Cut the budget to zero. There's no reason the government should be running them. There is a case for government funding (so that the poor still get access) but this isn't a huge issue in wealthy neighhorhoods.

Some items like waste management are obviously unavoidable.

Programs for the elderly ? These could be cut, though I doubt they're much of the budget.

What do local health departments do ? It seems like an unnecessary layer of administration unless the town is very large. Might be useful for handling crises (e.g. swine flue) otherwise ... ?

You can charge $ for access to parks.

That's a start ...

Some more great "free market / libertarian" ideas:
- A toll booth on every street - why should I pay out of my pocket for streets other people use, or use more often?
- replace police with private security - why should I pay for the same police? If I want better I can pay more to a better agency, or I can save money by paying a cheaper agency
- private Fire departments - why should I have to call the town firemen? What if I want a better fire department and I'm willing to pay more?
- private garbage collection - why can't I just pay the cheapest garbage company? Maybe I wanna put a dumpster in my driveway instead of taking garbage out to the street in a can
- private court system - why should I get stuck with a crappy judge? If I'm willing to pay more for a better judge, let me pay more and get better justice
- private armed forces - what if I just don't trust the US armed forces to do a good job? I should have the option of paying more for a better group of mercenaries, or less to a cheaper group, and I can pick up the slack by doing my own defense a little bit

Yeah, let's just privatize every single thing, that's sure to solve every problem!

[KathyA11]

Originally Posted by TheEmissary

KathyA11 - I'm not sure that Union County NJ

Bayonne is in Hudson County -- not that it matters. The process is the same all over the state.

does their budget the way it's done in Passaic County where I used to live. Passaic County towns and cities draft their own budgets.

In NJ, they all do.

The county has nothing to do with this process.

I never said it did -- please read my original post again. I said the county strikes the tax rate for all of the municipalities within county borders. The tax rate is not the municipal budget, but it is based upon the municipal budget.

County taxes are calculated by services rendered and then are included in the individual tax bills sent out by each town or city.

Exactly -- after the county strikes the rate.

County Freeholders are the ones responsible for the county budget...they have nothing to do with the way budgets for each municipality are done.

And you're operating under a misconception -- I never said the County had anything to do with any municipal budget. The municipal budgets are submitted to the county so that the county can strike the tax rates.

For the record, I live in Union County, NC and receive an individual bill for County and City Taxes. All schools are funded by the county and every town or city in the county receive an equal amount per student.

Which is different from the way schools are funded in NJ -- and the way schools are funded in NJ has everything to do with high RE taxes.

Texans do pay more than I would (for a similar house) in property taxes, but nowhere near what I paid for my dumpy Cape Cod in Paterson!

Apples and oranges.

[KathyA11]

Originally Posted by tahiti

I understand the bolded. My school taxes are about 70% of my bill - what I guess I"m not seeing is this - My rate right now is $1.90 per $1000 assessed (this includes everything). Morris County sets this number? Wouldn't Morris County give the County portion and my town then sets the rate based on that and the school/municipal part?

No. Towns do not set their tax rates in NJ. Tax rates are set by the counties for all of the municipalities within their borders, after the municipalities submit their budgets.

If you want a better explanation, call your local tax collector. I may have had over 15 years combined experience in both the Tax Collector's Office and Tax Assessor's Office here, but I'm several years away from working in either office (I left the Collector's Office in '87, and left the Assessor's Office in '04 to become the City Council's secretary). Someone actively working in either office can explain it better than I can.

[KathyA11]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

Start with the schools. Cut the budget to zero. There's no reason the government should be running them. There is a case for government funding (so that the poor still get access) but this isn't a huge issue in wealthy neighhorhoods.

Some items like waste management are obviously unavoidable.

Programs for the elderly ? These could be cut, though I doubt they're much of the budget.

What do local health departments do ? It seems like an unnecessary layer of administration unless the town is very large. Might be useful for handling crises (e.g. swine flue) otherwise ... ?

You can charge $ for access to parks.

That's a start ...

None of this merits a response other than to say -- the mind boggles.

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by KathyA11

None of this merits a response other than to say -- the mind boggles.

If you don't have anything intelligent or thoughtful response, why post ? I thought it merited a better response than a flippant dismissal or a juvenile "you're an idiot" response.

You asked how you could run a town on a much lower budget. I gave an answer. It would require a very different approach, and a fundamentally different way of asking what you expect the local government to provide. I understand that what I mentioned would not be very popular here (which is why we pay high taxes instead), but it is possible.

If the problem were addressed at a state level, there are more incremental, less radical reforms one could make to the school system. For example, vouchers are an incremental step towards providing some incentives to all parties (the students and the schools) that one could provide not only on an all-or-nothing basis (e.g. students can choose any public school, or any private school that costs no more than the most expensive public school) but also an incremental basis (decide to what degree you're prepared to do this)

The reason that this would need to be addressed at a state level is that you need some market dynamic, and many towns just aren't big enough for this to work (you'll always end up with winner-take-all and one dominant school emerging)

As for parks, charging for parks is possible, and it is potentially good for raising revenue. Depending on the geography and size of the park, this can be practical.

[NewHomeHappy]

Originally Posted by mrgrinch

I live in NC, originally from WI and there are a lot of NJ transplants here (as well as all over the country) Everybody I mean EVERYBODY from there says that its like a communist state with in the US. That taxes are ridiculous, that it is anti-business and hopelessly polluted. One lady told me it has worse roads than Somolia.

Is it true?

Is this a joke? You can not be serious.

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny

Some more great "free market / libertarian" ideas:

Free market only works given certain assumptions. When you have substantial neighborhood effects and/or moral hazard (that is, transactions or choices have effect on third parties), or natural monopolies (duplicate infrastructure makes competition inefficient), free market doesn't work well.

- A toll booth on every street - why should I pay out of my pocket for streets other people use, or use more often?

Impractical because the traffic load is small compared to access of the streets. This is an example of neighborhood effect -- streets are not exclusible.

- replace police with private security - why should I pay for the same police? If I want better I can pay more to a better agency, or I can save money by paying a cheaper agency

Possible but controversial. There are some issues involved with authority (they can't really arrest people)

- private Fire departments - why should I have to call the town firemen? What if I want a better fire department and I'm willing to pay more?

Not very practical (natural monopoly). A more practical libertarian solution would be a volunteer fire department (you still need taxes to pay for equipment)

- private garbage collection - why can't I just pay the cheapest garbage company? Maybe I wanna put a dumpster in my driveway instead of taking garbage out to the street in a can

Natural monopoly, neighborhood effect (added noise, traffic, eyesores in front of your place affect property values)

- private court system - why should I get stuck with a crappy judge? If I'm willing to pay more for a better judge, let me pay more and get better justice

Obvious problems with this (conflict of interest issues)

- private armed forces - what if I just don't trust the US armed forces to do a good job?

Too bad. Your best bet is to ask them to do less. You have natural monopoly issues, and moral hazard if someone pays mercenaries to go overseas.

Yeah, let's just privatize every single thing, that's sure to solve every problem!

No, in NJ, we just socialize every single thing.

Unless you have some clear principles on what service is and isn't a good candidate for government control, you are handing your government an opportunity to overreach, and take over services that they do not administer effectively or efficiently. Then you wonder why your taxes are so high.